More historical text from Comixfan:


Stuart V
Mar 4, 2011, 10:17 am
Finally found time to do some reviewing. Some very impressive attempts thus far. To save space, I'm going to trim out the bulk of the text, and just address specific points. Please don't take any critique too personally; part of the handbook process is nitpicking each others' profiles, in an attempt to produce a better final product.

captainswift wrote:

CROSS-WORDO

Straight off the bat, a nice, interesting choice.

captainswift wrote:

ALIASES: none

Very minor here - as the start of a section/sentence, it should be
ALIASES: None
with a capital letter. Same for some of the subsequent bio points.
IDENTITY: No dual identity

captainswift wrote:

PLACE OF BIRTH: unrevealed (in the US)

If we know it is the US, but not more specifically, we'd probably go with just US.

captainswift wrote:

FIRST APPEARANCE: Fun and Games Magazine #9

Need to add the year.

captainswift wrote:

HISTORY: Cross-Wordo is a massive robot created by unrevealed parties to capture Earth's heroes. It was activated, and sent on a mission down and across the countryside, seeking various heroes, often taking them on several at a time. It was programmed to recognize them by short, concise descriptions.

Good overall, but here's a revision, employing some of the tricks we use to trim word count while retaining content:

A massive robot created by unknown parties to capture Earth's heroes, Cross-Wordo was programmed to recognize its targets by short, concise descriptions, then sent hunting down and across the countryside, often taking on multiple heroes at a time.

captainswift wrote:

Why the designer thought this feature was a good idea remains unknown.

Avoid unknown - presumably the designer had a reason, we just don't know it. Use unrevealed in this case.

captainswift wrote:

It has not been seen again since this second encounter.

Avoid this - we've not seen it again, but for all we know Cross-Wordo is a constant problem to heroes who don't happen to have their own comics to show us the fight.

captainswift wrote:

powerful as the Hulk or Human Torch.

Where possible, include clarifiers for individuals who share a codename.

But, nitpicking aside, a very solid first entry. Well done!

captainswift wrote:

HOSTESS SNACK CAKES

For items, here's the template - it's a short one

CREATOR:
POSSESSORS:
FIRST APPEARANCE:

HISTORY:

captainswift wrote:

The first known use of Twinkies

Avoid "first", "original", etc - simply because someone will inevitably know of an earlier version OR will retcon in one. You'll say Spidey was the first to use Twinkies to stop a crime, and then we'll find a strip where Conan used them to defeat Thulsa Doom.

captainswift wrote:

Chairman,

Believe it or not, there's more than one Chairman, so a you want to use his real name as a clarifier. Check the Master List
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/mastguid.htm

captainswift wrote:

the Fly (a criminal similar to, but not, Richard Deacon),

Gardner Polley, to be exact.

captainswift wrote:

Smitten criminal Madame Web (not Cassandra Webb)

This is one who doesn't have a real name - in this instance, if we were mentioning her, we'd probably seek permission to name her, in order to clarify between her, Cassandra and Julia.

captainswift wrote:

by Thor’s offer

Thor Odinson's - there's other Thors.

captainswift wrote:

greatly infuriating the Red Skull (Schmidt),

Johann Shmidt - can't just use surname, because Sin has the same surname and may now be using the Red Skull name as an alias. And no c in his surname.

captainswift wrote:

Daredevil (Murdock) has used Twinkies to defeat McBrain, a super-genius criminal.

Again, full name for clarifier.

captainswift wrote:

Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards) defeated mischievous alien Imperceptor with Twinkies, which reacted with his DNA to make him visible.

Clarifier for Mr F should go with his first mention.

captainswift wrote:

by a criminal called the Boss-Man,

Shorter to say
by the criminal Boss-Man.

captainswift wrote:

Daredevil (Murdock) used Fruit Pies to distract boxer Baby Face Johnny, who was attacking because he thought Daredevil said he smelled of dirty socks (Daredevil had actually compared him favorably to Battlin’ Jack Murdock). He later used the peach flavored Fruit Pies to defeat the Peach, a criminal mastermind who was obsessed with peaches. He also used Fruit Pies to defeat criminal rocker, Johnny Punk.

Hitting a problem through the entry which isn't uncommon - when the details are scarce to start with, or there's nothing that noteworthy about a given encounter, it's easy to fall into a pattern like "he fought XX, then he fought YY, then he fought ZZ". If space permits, add details, otherwise, if you are stuck with what amounts to a laundry list, you can try and minimise the space used on it, and vary the wording and phrasing as much as possible:
Having previously used Fruit Pies to distract boxer Baby Face Johnny, who attacked because he thought Daredevil said he smelled of dirty socks (Daredevil had actually compared him favorably to Battlin’ Jack Murdock), the horn-headed vigilante later deployed peach-flavored Fruit Pies to defeat the peach-obsessed criminal mastermind Peach, and unspecified flavors to sidetrack criminal rocker, Johnny Punk

captainswift wrote:

Daredevil met and befriended Clymbe during one of these climbs.

ascents - otherwise we have three climbs (Clymbes) in the space of a couple of sentences.

captainswift wrote:

Johnny Storm used them to entice and defeat Frizone, a criminal biplane pilot who created unseasonal snowstorms. He also used them to defeat the frozen villain, Icemaster.

Try
Johnny Storm used them to entice and defeat both Frizone, a criminal biplane pilot who created unseasonal snowstorms, and the similarly frigid villain, Icemaster.

captainswift wrote:

and the robot Torgo, whom he was being forced to fight by unrevealed aliens.

If we didn't see them, they are unrevealed - if we saw them but didn't get their names, they are unidentified.

Again though, nitpicking aside, a very solid and entertaining entry.

More reviewing later, when time permits.

captainswift
Mar 4, 2011, 01:31 pm
Many thanks, there, Stuart. The fact that you're giving very specific feedback is much appreciated.

I am going to admit, I didn't pay attention to word count, just because I was trying to be absurdly thorough on a terribly trivial subject. I think there is one single Twinkie ad I didn't mention in any way, just because nothing at all seemed to happen in it. "Hey, Captain Marvel! Give us Twinkies!" "Okay, kids! I know kids love Twinkies!" End.

bigvis497
Mar 4, 2011, 02:21 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Avoid "first", "original", etc - simply because someone will inevitably know of an earlier version OR will retcon in one. You'll say Spidey was the first to use Twinkies to stop a crime, and then we'll find a strip where Conan used them to defeat Thulsa Doom.

Now THERE'S a story waiting to see print!

Michael Regan
Mar 4, 2011, 02:27 pm

bigvis497 wrote:

Now THERE'S a story waiting to see print!

It likely has ;)

Stuart V
Mar 8, 2011, 11:38 am

Phoenixx9 wrote:

Here is my Amateur Submission #1. I Hope you all like it.

Since others have analysed this pretty well, I'll try not to duplicate what they've said. It's an interesting entry, plainly done with a lot of love, but at the risk of sounding too critical, it does have some concerns.

Roger Ott wrote:

Good job! One thing I would change would be stripping off the first few sentences of the History and rewriting those into the Abilities section, as they more describe character traits.

Sidney Osinga wrote:

I hate to be critical, Phoenixx9, but the tone of the profile is too casual. Also, where was the information in the first two paragraphs revealed?

I'd concur with both of the above.

bigvis497 wrote:

Phoenixx, I think making up history kind of falls under this. You obviously did research on the character but IMO, you would have a much better profile if you removed the fanfic history
...trimmed for brevityThis isn't meant to be too harsh, think of it as constructive criticism. Again you obviously did your research. I just think you need to revise things to give it more of a professional feel. Keep these things in mind and you'll have some great entries!

I agree with absolutely everything above, especially the last sentiment. bigvis' analysis is pretty spot on.

oenglish wrote:

Well, I'll make some general comments if I may.

Absolutely. And, without quoting him on everything he says, Mark is spot on with all of what he said. Pearl is at most a one-pager, probably more likely a half page entry. The word count total does include ALL the text except for stuff from image suggestions down, not just history. We only get to add small bits normally.

On to more specific stuff

Phoenixx9 wrote:

IDENTITY: PINK PEARL

Identity is not Pink Pearl - it's not the identity you use, it's who knows your true identity. In Pearl's case it is either Known to the Authorities or Public.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

OCCUPATION: Criminal, legitimate business owner (ladies’ bar)

Also circus performer.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

CITIZENSHIP: unknown. Presumably American and Canadian
PLACE OF BIRTH: Unknown

In both cases, not unknown - unrevealed. And this is the kind of info we might seek to get editorial permission to add.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

GROUP AFFILIATION:

Shouldn't be blank - in her case, I presume the circus she worked for would be a former group affiliation.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

Virtually nothing is known of Pearl’s early life.

Nooooooooo! Bad phrase, bad phrase, bad phrase. This "little is known about XXX's early life" starter sours character profiles across the internet. It's usually wrong, and it's almost always a waste of valuable word count. Anytime you see this, re-read the same profile but with that phrase cut out; only keep it if you find it actually works better with it, which is not very often.

Tell me what we know, not what we don't know.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

She never mentions anyone from her early years, not even her parents.

I know this is in the new info section, which I said should be removed, but just noting that if we acknowledge she has parents, they should be listed as unidentified parents in her known relatives. In a reality where clones, artificial lifeforms and the like, we never assume anyone has any relatives, not even parents, but once we get told about them, even in passing, we acknowledge their existence.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

The intervening years are unknown, but Pearl showed up at a circus in Canada.

Again, don't tell us what is unknown. Firstly, it is unrevealed to us; Pearl knows what happened, we just haven't seen it. Second, we don't do "showed up" - the handbook isn't writing a police report where people resurface after dropping off the radar; we're never caught by surprise by their return. Thirdly, if we don't know, unless there is good reason to say that, we can just transition to the next thing we do know.
e.g.
A few years later Pearl had joined Clementine D'Arbanville's circus in Canada.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

Northstar (Jean-Paul Beaubier) and his sister Aurora (Jean-Marie Beaubier) received a letter from Northstar’s friend and owner of the circus, Clementine D’Arbanville. They showed up to lend support to Clementine, because she had a suspicion of something negative surrounding Pearl. As Ms. D’Arbanville was telling the twins about her performers being replaced by Pearl’s friends, Pearl broke in to the trailer, with the three still in it, and unhindered, punched Clementine in the face knocking her to the ground. Pearl began giving orders to which Northstar protested. He was taken out of action by Bones, an almost skeletal circus contortionist. Aurora, controlled by her Jean-Marie persona, was no match for Pearl, who schmooshed Aurora’s face into her flesh, knocking her out. Pearl then punched Clementine. When Clementine awoke, Pearl grabbed her with an outstretched arm and held her aloft for an extended period of time. When Aurora came to, she was now in her right frame of mind. She began flying around and the circus performers tried to attack the three still-bound prisoners. Pearl jumped into air and grounded Aurora while pummeling her. Pearl then held Aurora off the ground with one arm while Bones aimed his dagger. Just as Bones threw the dagger, he was knocked aside by Clementine, and the dagger plunged directly into the center of Pearl’s chest. She fell over unconscious from the shock but was essentially unhurt.

Here you recount events as if you were the reader of the comic. A handbook entry should recount events from the perspective of an impartial observer who is chronicling Pearl's actions. So the order of things should be

Pearl joins Clementine's circus, allies with Bones, uses circus for cover of crimes. Clementine becomes suspicious, calls on friends, Pearl gets wind, fight ensues.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

Pearl was later seen on Superia’s Cruise of Deception, where Pearl and other super-strong women tried to tear apart Captain America. Despite some of the women having super strength class 10 or greater, Pearl held her own while attacking Cap. After the women were defeated, Pearl disappeared.
The other women's strengths is irrelevant to Pearl's profile - we'd be better off being told who Superia was (man-hating uberfeminist), why Pearl was on the cruise (Pearl and numerous other costumed/super human women accepted invite - Superia trying to win them over to join her feminist army). Remember, it is Pearl's story, not Cap's; Pearl did not appear as a minor character amongst lots of other minor characters to interupt Cap's investigation - Pearl is the star of her story, got invited to go on the cruise, met other women of similar criminal backgrounds, then Cap interrupted Pearl's crusie with his snooping and Pearl joined the other women in trying to put the beatdown on him. Lastly, Pearl didn't disappear, she escaped.

Pearl was next seen on a particular Christmas Eve when three heroines, Aurora, Diamond Lil (Lillian Crawley) and Vindicator (Heather Hudson) in their civilian guises went to Cloister, a bar with male dancers, to celebrate Lil’s engagement and serve as her bachelorette party. When Aurora got on stage and danced with the male “performance artists”, a thunderous pounding was heard as someone approached the stage. Pearl came up behind Aurora and lifted her off the ground by her hair. As Pearl had attacked from behind, neither woman knew who they were fighting until Aurora turned around. Then the ruckus commenced. Aurora kicked Pearl in the face as Pearl tore off her dress to show Aurora her stab wound from their last encounter. Pearl knocked Aurora down and leapt into the air to attack Lil and Heather, but both women punched Pearl at the same time, causing her to bounce through the front window out of the bar. Unharmed, Pearl called the police and the three heroines were promptly arrested. It turns out Pearl not only owned this establishment but was a legitimate businesswoman.

Again, told as if you were reading the comic, in reveal order. The handbook should tell us up front that Pearl became a legit businesswoman, owning Cloister, members of Alpha came there for bachelorette party, Aurora got on stage, breaking club rules, Pearl intervened, fight ensued as heroines assumed Pearl was still a crook, they got arrested.
I would also take out the parts where it sounds like you're writing the story. Example:

"When Aurora got on stage and danced with the male “performance artists”, a thunderous pounding was heard 'as someone approached the stage. Pearl came up behind Aurora and lifted her off the ground by her hair. As Pearl had attacked from behind, neither woman knew who they were fighting until Aurora turned around. Then the ruckus commenced."

This is way too much detail, remember you don't want to tell the story in a handbook entry, your goal is to recap all the major happenings. All you really need is:

"Aurora was attacked by Pearl while attending Diamond Lil's bachelorette party."
I agree the detail that was there was more than was needed, and you could get away with the version you suggested. However, I think a halfway house, word count permitting, would be best - e.g. add in explanation of why Pearl was there, and why she initially attacked Aurora (be it simply revenge, or because Aurora was breaking house rules by joining the strippers on the stage, etc.)

Phoenixx9 wrote:

She has an uncanny ability to slip away undetected. Pearl’s current location is unknown.

Second last sentence would be an ability, last is a no-no both because it's not unknown (Pearl presumably knows where she is), but rather unrevealed, and because it's a non-information sentence. Except in rare circumstances, we don't end entries with "current activities/location unrevealed" and more than we start with "little is known about".

Phoenixx9 wrote:

HEIGHT: 7’4”; 7’8” with bun on top of head (instead of in the back)
WEIGHT: 1000 lbs. (Quite modest, Pearl quotes 700 “pleasingly plump” pounds to friends)
EYES: Blue
HAIR: Blonde, worn in a bun

We wouldn't list the bun, nor that Pearl lies about her weight, at least not in the stats.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

ABILITIES/ACCESSORIES: It is unknown if Pink Pearl is a low-level mutant (Homo Superior) or simply a baseline human (Homo Sapien) with enhanced abilities.

Again, avoid unknown. And since it is all speculation, I'd cut it entirely to save word count - if we'd had any hint she might be a mutant, then that would be another matter.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

What is known is that Pearl has strength far above what would be expected, even for one of her size and weight. The exact limits of Pearl’s strength is undetermined, however she has demonstrated strength much greater than that of Captain America (who can lift 800 pounds). On more than one occasion, Pearl has been seen holding an adult woman at arm’s length for a period of time without strain. In fact, it is theorized that Pearl can lift up to 1600 pounds. She also has other enhanced abilities including speed, agility and fighting prowess.

While she's definitely strong, and surprisingly agile for her size, I don't recall any evidence that she's superhuman in any way. Apart from holding Aurora aloft (which is impressive, but not necessarily superhuman), can you cite evidence?

Phoenixx9 wrote:

Pearl’s humongous leg muscles enable her to leap up to 50 feet, while also making a thunderous pounding as she walks on some types of flooring. Pearl has demonstrated the ability to use her subcutaneous fat stores in her abdomen and back to bounce like a ball 25 feet and even high into the air.

She did demonstrate a decent leaping ability, but 50 feet? Seems an overestimate. I'd need to double check that, or see evidence cited.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

In order to make the profile a little longer and more interesting I created a minor back story which I tried to weave into some known Marvel facts, like Blob, Blob at the circus, Blob being found by Magneto at the circus and Lubbock, Texas which is where Fred (Blob) is from. Since Pearl was also at a circus, I tried to tie some logical events together.

The trouble is, new stuff on this level needs to be approved by editorial. I don't disagree that it would be feasible for the new stuff to have occured, but it's just as likely, for example, that Pearl was once with the Circus of Crime, but decided she didn't like sharing profits with them, how the Ringmaster ran things, or that they kept taking on super-powered opponents, so she took their schtick and moved to Canada, where she figured there would be fewer superhumans to deal with. But all that would still be speculation, great backstory for a regular comic or maybe a files book (where we have more creative freedom to introduce new info) to add, not something the handbooks normally do.

Please don't take the critique too personally; as Mark mentioned, we do the same to the entries we produce for the handbooks, with the aim of making for a better final product.


And lastly, a question the above raised, but not a review of the entry itself:

VainInsect wrote:

This raises a question I've had for a long time, why aren't instances and occurrences footnoted?

If you mean in the handbooks themselves? It's because we'd end up with an almost unreadable text full of footnote links, and then the footnotes would eat up most of the space the entry had.

Phoenixx9
Mar 8, 2011, 02:08 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Since others have analysed this pretty well, I'll try not to duplicate what they've said.

1) It's an interesting entry, plainly done with a lot of love,

2) And, without quoting him on everything he says, Mark is spot on with all of what he said. Pearl is at most a one-pager,

3) Also circus performer.

4) Pearl knows what happened, we just haven't seen it. Pearl presumably knows where she is

5) Second, we don't do "showed up" - the handbook isn't writing a police report where people resurface after dropping off the radar;

6) Here you recount events as if you were the reader of the comic.

7) Pearl didn't disappear, she escaped.

8) We wouldn't list the bun, nor that Pearl lies about her weight, at least not in the stats.

9) While she's definitely strong, and surprisingly agile for her size, I don't recall any evidence that she's superhuman in any way. Apart from holding Aurora aloft (which is impressive, but not necessarily superhuman), can you cite evidence?

10) She did demonstrate a decent leaping ability, but 50 feet? Seems an overestimate. I'd need to double check that, or see evidence cited.

11) Please don't take the critique too personally; as Mark mentioned, we do the same to the entries we produce for the handbooks, with the aim of making for a better final product.

Thank you Stuart for your very detailed and in-depth analysis! You did provide additional information which I find very useful. I will try to remember all those helpful tips that you and the others have provided for any future profiles that I may post. Unfortunately at this point, being so busy and working on my PP story in my free time, I am afraid that it may be a while before another profile premieres. But 'cha never know! That being said, I do think at this point in time that my Pink Pearl submission has now been thoroughly critiqued!

Below, I have provided some responses to your points along with some insights.

1) As you stated, my profile was interesting and created with a lot of love. Yup, that's true. :Yes: It's Pink Pearl--a favorite for years! IMHO, she deserves an entry--a 1-page entry. I want a big pic of her, a facial close-up and some backstory.

I spent much time reviewing PP's entries before writing and really looking at the scenes, so what I presented as powers were based off the comics. 100%. I have given references for her abilities, which I will review a little further down.

2) I totally agreed with Marc's appraisal. I wrote a reply stating such and thanking him for his kind help with my work. I am a fan of his work. Such critique was a huge complement to me and much appreciated!

3) Doh! How could I leave out Pearl being a circus performer?? I know that. :Dunce:

4) You made me laugh when you wrote about Pearl knowing what happened (to herself) and where she was (location) at any given time. But, are you sure that she does? Were you with her?? LOL. I gotcha'--these are good points to keep in mind.

5) Yes, I may have let some of my professional speak slip in when dealing with or writing about criminals. That's how we talked--"Criminal PP, whereabouts unknown, finally showed up after hiding her tail underground." :rofl: It's one thing that makes writing fun--people of all backgrounds can write stories to which others can relate, even if the backgrounds are different. (For example, even though you don't use that phrasing in the HBs, you still knew what I meant.)

6) Yes, yes, yes I admit it. I love to write. And, I did provide too much detail in general, specifically for a HB profile. As I stated in my reply to Marc, I am in the middle of writing a story about PP and I accidentally pulled from my writings when doing the profile. I was excited that Pearl was finally getting a 1-pg premiere, even if I had to be the one to do it! Due to time limitations, I didn't compare to official profiles or take a huge amount of time to review for trimming. That was my error. I also love the power Pearl demonstrated in these books! I got sooo carried away.

7) Quite true, Pearl escaped, not disappeared. Another good point made. Be clear in what one writes. It's really what I meant, but did not express. Definitely, bad wording on my part.

8) Here is where we run into some disagreement: I liked the part about the bun and Pearl's modesty regarding her weight! I thought it was a unique touch. I understand it isn't the current Marvel style, and thought that someone would say something about it, but perhaps it should be included! Maybe more detail with other characters should be included if there is something unique with their look. (For other examples: I think it should be mentioned in Quicksilver's profile that Pietro's hair has 2 strands on either side that go from the front to the back, resembling "2 wings" and that Wanda frequently had three curls that fell over her headdress, almost identical in style to Magda and Miss America.) This would let (new) readers know that this character has this particular look vs. just artistic license for a picture or how a particular artist drew the character. I feel the same in Pearl's case. Also, if it was not included where I placed it, then where? There is no other spot. I get your point that the current books are not this detail-oriented, but I wanted it included, I did include it, and I made it mine. No apologies.

9) Trying to provide you with some information here: Yes, Pearl is definitely strong. And quite agile. She also is able to leap quite the distance(see point 10). I did cite some examples and here they are:
1st appearance: holding Clementine D'Arbanville off the ground at arm's length with no strain over numerous panels.
2nd appearance: holding Aurora off the ground by her hair at arm's length with no discernable strain. Also, when Pearl throws Aurora away with one hand, the reader can tell that it is quite a distance, as Aurora is off the stage. (Aurora crashes into a pillar holding a statue.) Off the top of my head, I know that Aurora is 5'11" tall and weighs 140 pounds. However, to be accurate, I referenced the OHOTMU HC Vol 1, which states that info. Exactly. Clementine has no official statistics, as she is another with no profile , but I observed her in reference to both Northstar and Aurora, and in my estimate, she is about 5'8" and 125 pounds.

In general reference to physical strength: I am in very good shape and I am quite aware of how difficult holding a weight at arm's length is, especially the larger the item. Try holding 3 plastic water or milk bottles in one hand for 30 seconds at arm's length. That's only 24 pounds. Try holding a 5 gallon gas container at arm's length for 30 seconds. As the weight and size of the object increases, there is a geometric increase in the strength required to hold the item. I know men who routinely bench press 315-365 pounds. They can't hold a 50-pound weight at arm's length. If anything, they may work with a 35-40 pound weight, but again, they can't keep it aloft; it is an up-and-down motion, not held steady by any means. This also demonstrates my point that Pearl does have some form of super-strength, much higher than would be anticipated. However, I do feel that Pearl has demonstrated her super-strength to some degree, just not to her max.

10) As to Pearl's leaping, the last panel page 20 shows Pearl taking flight and that she is actually in the air. The first panel page 21 also shows Pearl in the air in the "flying" or "superman" position. Pearl grabs Aurora, who is in the air (in flight) and both crash to the ground, with Pearl on top.

11) Stuart, your critique was very good and very helpful. I took no offense at all. Like I said in response to Michael, I see this as a learning experience and an opportunity to teach others to avoid (my) mistakes, since I was one of the early posters, who went outside the borders and expanded on a unique character. I also see it as an opportunity to tell my side on a few points. Likewise, please don't take my rebuttal on the few points related to the character of PP as anything but a loyal fan who knows a few things, especially about said character. :hug:

bigvis497
Mar 8, 2011, 03:59 pm

Phoenixx9 wrote:

8) Here is where we run into some disagreement: I liked the part about the bun and Pearl's modesty regarding her weight! I thought it was a unique touch. I understand it isn't the current Marvel style, and thought that someone would say something about it, but perhaps it should be included! Maybe more detail with other characters should be included if there is something unique with their look. (For other examples: I think it should be mentioned in Quicksilver's profile that Pietro's hair has 2 strands on either side that go from the front to the back, resembling "2 wings" and that Wanda frequently had three curls that fell over her headdress, almost identical in style to Magda and Miss America.) This would let (new) readers know that this character has this particular look vs. just artistic license for a picture or how a particular artist drew the character. I feel the same in Pearl's case. Also, if it was not included where I placed it, then where? There is no other spot. I get your point that the current books are not this detail-oriented, but I wanted it included, I did include it, and I made it mine. No apologies.

Ehhh, I still think it's up to the illustrations to cover minute details like that. If there's an important storyline reason why a character wears their hair a certain way, that should be covered in the history text. I've never read any Pink Pearl stories, but just gathering info from what I've read here, and doing a quick scan of marvunnap.com, it's just a bun hairdo, nothing special/historic about it.

Using your method, you would get into many problems with characters who change their look frequently. Look at the Wasp (Jan's) entry. By far the most costume shots out of any of the handbook entries. Would you really need to use text to explain each of her hairstyles? I imagine it would easily eat up an entire page explaining what hairdos she wore with what costume, timeframe, etc.

The illustrations get the exact same point across.

Phoenixx9 wrote:

9) Trying to provide you with some information here: Yes, Pearl is definitely strong. And quite agile. She also is able to leap quite the distance(see point 10). I did cite some examples and here they are:
1st appearance: holding Clementine D'Arbanville off the ground at arm's length with no strain over numerous panels.
2nd appearance: holding Aurora off the ground by her hair at arm's length with no discernable strain. Also, when Pearl throws Aurora away with one hand, the reader can tell that it is quite a distance, as Aurora is off the stage. (Aurora crashes into a pillar holding a statue.) Off the top of my head, I know that Aurora is 5'11" tall and weighs 140 pounds. However, to be accurate, I referenced the OHOTMU HC Vol 1, which states that info. Exactly. Clementine has no official statistics, as she is another with no profile , but I observed her in reference to both Northstar and Aurora, and in my estimate, she is about 5'8" and 125 pounds.

In general reference to physical strength: I am in very good shape and I am quite aware of how difficult holding a weight at arm's length is, especially the larger the item. Try holding 3 plastic water or milk bottles in one hand for 30 seconds at arm's length. That's only 24 pounds. Try holding a 5 gallon gas container at arm's length for 30 seconds. As the weight and size of the object increases, there is a geometric increase in the strength required to hold the item. I know men who routinely bench press 315-365 pounds. They can't hold a 50-pound weight at arm's length. If anything, they may work with a 35-40 pound weight, but again, they can't keep it aloft; it is an up-and-down motion, not held steady by any means. This also demonstrates my point that Pearl does have some form of super-strength, much higher than would be anticipated. However, I do feel that Pearl has demonstrated her super-strength to some degree, just not to her max.

I don't think a person of that size would have much difficulty picking up someone 1/10th their size. Not that I entirely disagree with your strength argument, I would lean more towards the fact that she's even mobile at all. Most (all?) real-life people who are that large are stationary. I would say the fact that she can even move is somewhat superhuman.

Stuart V
Mar 9, 2011, 08:01 am
And coming up to date on the reviews...

Roger Ott wrote:

Here's my first attempt, a half-pager to ease into it...
EDUCATION: Unrevealed, presumed extensive; has won the Nobel Prize

As captainswift noted, the fact that he's called Doctor (combined with him being a scientist) probably means he has a doctorate. That he won the Nobel Prize for scientific work would suggest the Ph.D is genuine. However, it's not guaranteed - Nightshade calls herself Doctor Nightshade, and she's got the knowledge, but she lacks the actual paperwork - her degrees are all self taught. She claimed otherwise for a bit, saying she took the time while in prison to sit the exams, but MODOK's 11 revealed that was a lie. Still, probably worth including at least a "presumed Ph.D"

Roger Ott wrote:

former Stark lovers Bethany Cabe and Madame Masque.

Actually a Masque bio-duplicate, but that's a very easy mistake to make. Thanosi, Doombots, LMDs, Space Phantoms, Skrull imposters and bio-duplicate Masques retconned in by later writers to explain uncharacteristic past performances lead to a lot of confusion.

Roger Ott wrote:

His activities since are unrevealed.

As ever, I'd avoid using this ender - we'd reveal what he'd done if we knew it, so by default if we haven't then he hasn't been seen since. I might also move this to history, if I could find a way to blend it in naturally, as it isnt really an ability; however, if I couldn't fit it into history without disrupting the flow of the text, I don't think I'd object to it being left where it is.

Roger Ott wrote:

For unknown reasons, he refuses to speak.

Go with unexplained, rather than unknown - he presumably knows the reasons, and others probably do, but we don't.

But these minor quibbles aside, this is a really good profile. If we were doing an actual entry for him for the handbooks and the writer assigned handed in this for an entry, I'd pick up on the same points, amend them, and then I would consider it about ready to go to print.

Roger Ott wrote:

ARNOLD DONOVAN
IDENTITY: Secret

Since he's being listed under his real name, I'd clarify this with a "(as Hobgoblin)" - it's not a secret that he is Arnold Donovan, nor that he is Lefty.

Roger Ott wrote:

the original Green Goblin.

Avoid "original" or "first" as a descriptor for characters - it's often incorrect, and if it isn't then there is a good chance someone will retcon in a new character that predates them. Look at the Vulture - how often did older books call Adrian Toomes the first/original Vulture? When in fact there are at least five Golden Age villains of that name, all active during WWII, predating Toomes both in the real and fictional worlds. Use the Goblin's real name as a clarifier.

Roger Ott wrote:

Spider-Man

And clarify Spider-Man - there's been a few.

Roger Ott wrote:

managed to capture Donovan's gang,

Avoid "managed to XXX" and similar phrases - it eats up word count and usually adds nothing. So you'd instead say
"Spider-Man (Peter Parker) captured Donovan's gang,"

Roger Ott wrote:

but Donovan himself escaped

And you can probably manage without the "himself" here. Not bad English, by any means, but we are always trying to trim down word count.

Roger Ott wrote:

Using former Osborn employee Dr. Gerhard Winkler's prototype brainwashing equipment, Hobgoblin planted posthypnotic suggestions and instructions in Donovan's mind. Per these instructions, Donovan recreated the strength-enhancing formula of the original Green Goblin while Kingsley monitored.

I'd rephrase this slightly, to clarify Hobgoblin's motives for doing this:

Unwilling to risk using the Goblin's strength-enhancing formula on himself without a test, Hobgoblin used former Osborn employee Dr. Gerhard Winkler's brainwashing equipment to plant posthypnotic suggestions in Donovan's mind, instructing him to recreate the formula while Kingsley monitored.

If Kingsley was aware that the formula normally caused mental instability, then it might be worth mentioning that as the reason behind his deciding to do a test run on Donovan.

Roger Ott wrote:

ABILITIES/ACCESSORIES: After being exposed to

minor - might use the slightly shorter
After exposure to

But again, apart from these minor quibbles, it's a very good profile.

Roger Ott
Mar 9, 2011, 08:33 am

Stuart V wrote:

But these minor quibbles aside, this is a really good profile. If we were doing an actual entry for him for the handbooks and the writer assigned handed in this for an entry, I'd pick up on the same points, amend them, and then I would consider it about ready to go to print.

Thanks! All of the points you mention make obvious sense when you look at them with a fresh eye. That's what I love about the editorial process.

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 11:30 am
Hey Stu, did you get a chance to look over my write-up on Porcupine (Gocking)? I'm curious to know what you think.

Stuart V
Mar 9, 2011, 12:16 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:

Hey Stu, did you get a chance to look over my write-up on Porcupine (Gocking)? I'm curious to know what you think.

Oops. Knew there was something wrong when I reached the end - I thought there was another entry. Must have skipped over it accidentally when I was ticking the multiquote boxes.

Eduardo M. wrote:

Here's my 1st attempt. Please be gentle

:mwahaha: :Devil:

Eduardo M. wrote:

ALIASES: none

Incredibly minor nitpick - capital letters for the start of each header - e.g. None, Professional criminal, etc.

Eduardo M. wrote:

IDENTITY: possibly known to authorities

We'd have to rule whether he was secret or not - since he's been captured a few times, in all likelihood he is known, as you suggest.

Eduardo M. wrote:

PLACE OF BIRTH: unknown

Unrevealed, rather than unknown. Same comment re: education.

Eduardo M. wrote:

FIRST APPEARANCE: Daughters of the Dragon #3 (2006)

This isn't his first appearance, but, to be fair, you wouldn't be expected to realise that.

Eduardo M. wrote:

He first appeared in a bar Misty Knight and Colleen Wing came to for information.

As always, avoid first, because it inevitably will turn out not to be the first. Which is the case here.

Eduardo M. wrote:

Mach-IV (Jenkins)

If you clarify, use the whole name. In this instance, I don't think there's another Mach-IV, so you could get away with not clarifying.

Eduardo M. wrote:

leading the Beetles trio

But these three do need clarified, since there have been quite a few Beetles now.

Eduardo M. wrote:

led by Doctor Octopus.

Ock needs a clarifier too.

Eduardo M. wrote:

Doctor Victor Von Doom.

It may well not be something anyone has picked up on, but if you check, you'll see the handbooks only ever use Doctor in the headings of entries. Everywhere else, we use the shorter Dr. We do lots of little space saving tricks like that - individually they might not save much, but combined it's surprising how much space it saves.

Eduardo M. wrote:

Gocking fought T'Challa and his allies, engaging in one-on-one combat with Black Panther (Shuri), Despite scoring numerous hits with his quills, Porcupine was defeated by Shuir using her energy truncheons.
Gocking had a rematch with the group at the end of Doomwar as well.

A more general note, and one that applies to CyRog's entries too - for half page entries, we never do multiple paragraphs for history. Every blank line between paragraphs eats up space that could take around 15 words of history. In a half page entry, space is too precious to waste on them.

Eduardo M. wrote:

HEIGHT: (in armor) 6'1
WEIGHT: (in armor) 235 lbs

If giving height and weight in armor, you can also estimate height and weight without. While we've never seen him out of the armor, we have a fair idea via Gentry as to how much it impacts on the wearer's height and weight - we know Gocking isn't fat, for instance, because it's a fairly figure hugging outfit at the front.

Eduardo M. wrote:

EYES: unknown
HAIR: unknown

Unrevealed, again, rather than unknown.

Eduardo M. wrote:

ABILITIES/ACCESSORIES: Roger Gocking wears an armor similar to the one designed by Alexander Gentry.

While there is nothing wrong with this statement, since you've already mentioned in the history that it is based on Gentry's armor, I'd save word count and just say "Gocking's Porcupine armor can fire quills..."

It can fire quills at a high velocity at a target. Gentry's original armor could fire a variety of quills including gas and explosive. So far, Gocking's armor has only shown to fire sharp quills. It also so far has not demonstrated other abilities that Gentry's possessed, including enhanced strength and flight for short periods of time.
So, taking what I said above, I'd trim this to
Gocking's armor can fire targeted quills at high velocity; to date his armor has not demonstrated any of the more advanced capabilities Gentry's armor had, such as explosive and gas quills, enhanced strength or flight.

Has his armor demonstrated any protective capabilities?

For all my nitpicking, it's a pretty decent stab at an entry. Not bad at all.

A more general note, and one that applies to CyRog's entries too - for half page entries, we never do multiple paragraphs for history. Every blank line between paragraphs eats up space that could take around 15 words of history. In a half page entry, space is too precious to waste on them.

If giving height and weight in armor, you can also estimate height and weight without. While we've never seen him out of the armor, we have a fair idea via Gentry as to how much it impacts on the wearer's height and weight - we know Gocking isn't fat, for instance, because it's a fairly figure hugging outfit at the front.

Unrevealed, again, rather than unknown.

While there is nothing wrong with this statement, since you've already mentioned in the history that it is based on Gentry's armor, I'd save word count and just say "Gocking's Porcupine armor can fire quills..."

So, taking what I said above, I'd trim this to
Gocking's armor can fire targeted quills at high velocity; to date his armor has not demonstrated any of the more advanced capabilities Gentry's armor had, such as explosive and gas quills, enhanced strength or flight.

Has his armor demonstrated any protective capabilities?

For all my nitpicking, it's a pretty decent stab at an entry. Not bad at all.

Eduardo M.
Date missing
Thanks for the critique. I had noticed some of the things you pointed out after I wrote it.

I chose Gocking for my first because I figured it would be a 1/2-pager and therefore easier to do for a first try. Now that I have your notes I may try for a full pager next.

Michael Regan
Mar 9, 2011, 03:43 pm
I've been trying to figure out Gocking's actual first appearance, but cannot quite do so. Anyone else have an idea?

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 04:34 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I've been trying to figure out Gocking's actual first appearance, but cannot quite do so. Anyone else have an idea?

I checked the Appendix and it lists Daughters of the Dragon #3. I also checked Wikipedia and the Marvel Database and they both say the same thing.
 
Stuart V
Mar 9, 2011, 04:51 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:

I checked the Appendix and it lists Daughters of the Dragon #3. I also checked Wikipedia and the Marvel Database and they both say the same thing.

All of them are wrong. Unusual for the Appendix, not for Wikipedia.

Check at least a decade earlier - he's even on the cover of the issue in question.

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 06:48 pm

Stuart V wrote:

All of them are wrong. Unusual for the Appendix, not for Wikipedia.

Check at least a decade earlier - he's even on the cover of the issue in question.

is he supposed to be the Porcupine who appeared in Sensational She-Hulk #59?

Stuart V
Mar 9, 2011, 06:50 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:

is he supposed to be the Porcupine who appeared in Sensational She-Hulk #59?

Yes, retroactively.

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 07:32 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Yes, retroactively.

ah. so does this mean the Tinkerer gave him the armor?

Stuart V
Mar 9, 2011, 07:47 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:

ah. so does this mean the Tinkerer gave him the armor?

That we don't know. It's possible, but equally he might have found it another way and simply used the Tinkerer for repairs/upgrades. But it wouldn't be the first time the Tinkerer has sold on the technology of a dead client, creating a new version of an old villain.

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 08:38 pm

Stuart V wrote:

That we don't know. It's possible, but equally he might have found it another way and simply used the Tinkerer for repairs/upgrades. But it wouldn't be the first time the Tinkerer has sold on the technology of a dead client, creating a new version of an old villain.

very true

Michael Regan
Mar 10, 2011, 08:38 am
Wow, nice catch there.

bigvis497
Mar 10, 2011, 11:26 am
Does anybody have a list of all the beast/monster-type entries (no files)? I'm working on a character that falls under this category and I'm just curious to see how things like identity and occupation were done for others.
Off the top of my head, I remember Apocalypse Beast, Chtylok, then I'm drawing blanks. I'm not really looking for guys like FF Foom, Gorgilla, Groot etc. since they've been somewhat humanized and/or given occupations recently. The guy I'm working on is a straight-up monster. Any help would be appreciated!

captainswift
Mar 20, 2011, 03:10 am
(Note: This entry is only meant to cover Batman as he is relevant to the Marvel Universe)

BATMAN

REAL NAME: Bruce Wayne
ALIASES: ‘Matches’ Malone, Sir Hemingford Gray, “Bats”
IDENTITY: Secret on ‘Earth-1’; Publicly Known on Earth-616 from comic book appearances
OCCUPATION: Multimillionaire socialite, chief stock holder of Wayne Enterprises, vigilante
CITIZENSHIP: United States, ‘Earth-1’
PLACE OF BIRTH: Gotham City, New Jersey, ‘Earth-1”
KNOWN RELATIVES: Thomas Wayne (father, deceased), Martha Wayne (mother, deceased)
GROUP AFFILIATION: Justice League of America
EDUCATION: College degrees, intensively self-trained in numerous fields
FIRST APPEARANCE: Detective Comics #27 (1939); (in a Marvel co-published comic) DC Special Series #27 (1981); (confirmed appearance of ‘Earth-1’ Batman interacting with Earth-616) DC Versus Marvel/Marvel Versus DC #1 (1996)

HISTORY: In a distant cosmos, on a world known by that multiverse’s method of designation as ‘Earth-1’, a young Bruce Wayne was attending a movie with his parents. Choosing to walk through a dark side street, later to be known as “Crime Alley”, the Waynes were mugged and the two adults murdered. Young Bruce was raised by the family butler, Alfred Pennyworth. When he came of age, he began training in numerous areas of science, detective work, armed and unarmed combat, and other fields, traveling the world to find the greatest teacher in each skill.

Returning to his home in Gotham City, Bruce plotted a means to battle crime, so others wouldn’t suffer from it as he had. He was inspired by the sight of a bat to create a costume to strike fear in the hearts of criminals, and created the identity of Batman. Utilizing numerous weapons and vehicles purchased by his vast wealth, along with a formidable assortment of skills, he became one of the most dangerous defenders of justice on his world.

Over the intervening years, Batman acquired a sidekick, Robin (Tim Drake), and joined the Justice League of America, his world’s foremost team of superhuman defenders.

At some point, two powerful celestial beings known as ‘The Brothers’ discovered each other. One brother embodied (in some manner different from Eternity) the reality of Earth-616, and the other, Earth-1. They began to come together, merging the two worlds, in an attempt by each to prove dominance over the other. As the Brothers merged, elements from the two worlds began crossing over with each other. Batman and Robin encountered Earth-616’s Bullseye (Lester) in his Batcave, and defeated him. Immediately afterwards, Robin vanished to Earth-616. During this cosmic upheaval, Batman also had brief encounters with Venom (Eddie Brock), the Lizard (Curt Connors), and the X-Men Wolverine (James Howlett) and Gambit (Remy LeBeau), the latter two stealing his personal vehicle, Batmobile. While he was out dealing with these events, his base of operations, the Batcave, was invaded by the Mole Man (Harvey Elder).

The Brothers decided direct confrontation was futile, and instead chose “champions” from the Earths of their respective realities. Batman was among the chosen Earth-1 heroes, and pitted against Captain America (Steve Rogers). After a well-matched battle, Batman won, though the Earth-616 champions were the overall victors. The Earth-1 Universe was spared, however, when the multidimensional Access (Axel Asher), who belonged to both worlds, merged the two universes into an Amalgam reality.

The new reality was eventually separated into Earths-1 and -616 again by Access, and the Brothers were coerced to give up their conflict by the combined efforts of Batman, Captain America, and Access.

Another rift between the two worlds happened shortly afterward. After battling the Scorpion (Mac Gargan), Batman encountered Access, who told him of the Amalgam Universe, and his belief that its inhabitant, Dr. Strangefate’s personality still resided in the subconscious of Earth-616 native, Stephen Strange, and was the cause of the new dimensional upheaval. They journeyed to Earth-616 to confront Strange, who denied being influenced by Strangefate in any way. When the X-Men came to Strange’s aid, Access evened the odds by bringing other members of the Justice League over to 616. A battle ensued, but Access ended it by creating a “new” Amalgam Universe (Earth-692) and giving Strangefate a place in it.

Later, the memories of these events were somehow removed from the minds of both worlds’ inhabitants. The alien Krona, a native of the planet Oa in the Earth-1 universe, was traveling the cosmos, destroying universes in hopes of creating a new Big Bang which he could study. Earth-616’s Grandmaster (En Dwi Gast), challenged Krona to a game, in an attempt to save his universe, and they agreed to use the heroes of the others’ worlds as pawns. Once again, the two worlds were brought together, causing cosmic rifts. Batman and other members of the Justice League, after battling various threats from Reality-616, including the monstrous Terminus, were tasked by the Grandmaster to locate various artifacts from both worlds, and to do so before Earth-616’s Avengers.

As the rest of the Avengers and Justice League battled, Batman and Captain America, quickly earning each others’ respect, joined forces to try to stop the competition at its source. Using a “time cycle” borrowed from the Fantastic Four, they journeyed to the Grandmaster’s lair, and with the help of Earth-1’s Atom (Ray Palmer), they discovered the nature of the competition between Grandmaster and Krona, and returned to their teams. Working together, they ensured the Justice League (and therefore the Grandmaster) won. Instead of accepting defeat, Krona attacked Grandmaster mercilessly until the Elder told him of Galactus. Galactus had survived a Big Bang, and would know of the secrets Krona coveted. To prevent this discovery, Grandmaster used the collected artifacts to alter reality.

Batman and the other Justice Leaguers and Avengers were shifted through various altered timelines in which the two teams had history with one another, until the core members of each team regained their proper memories, and battled through numerous enemies of each team, to reach Krona, whom they eventually defeated by trapping him in a Cosmic Egg, which represented a fledgling universe.

Batman continues to serve as one of the foremost champions of his world.

NOTE: Several appearances by Batman interacting with heroes native to Earth-616 probably occurred on Earth-7642, where heroes of both realities coexist. Some references made by Access (Axel Asher), Batman’s enemy the Joker, and Spider-Man (Ben Reilly) seem to imply these events may have been the result of the two realities briefly merging, though this is not absolutely confirmed. Chronicled encounters with the Hulk (Bruce Banner), Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Spider-Man (Ben Reilly), Punisher (Frank Castle), and Daredevil (Matt Murdock), all seem to exist on a world where both Batman and the other hero have history, which is inconsistent with the mergers caused by the Brothers, Dr. Strangefate, and Krona, making Earth-7642 the more likely explanation. Access also encountered a younger Batman in an altered timeline, and one reality is known to exist in which both Batman and Captain America (Steve Rogers) were active in World War II, and their descendents fight crime in the present day. This entry is concerned only with confirmed appearances of the Earth-1 Batman, as he interacts with Earth-616.

HEIGHT: 6’2” EYES: Blue
WEIGHT: 220 lbs. HAIR: Black

ABILITIES/ACCESSORIES: Batman is one of the greatest detectives who ever lived, with a keen analytical mind, and an eye for detail. He will often pick up on subtle clues that the police miss, and his vast and eclectic range of knowledge allows him to make deductions that would elude most others. He is trained in numerous sciences and forensic skills, and is gifted in lab work as well as principles.

Batman is a gifted athlete, and one of the greatest hand-to-hand combatants in the world. He is familiar with all known fighting arts, and has proven easily the equal to Captain America in all their encounters. Although he generally fights unarmed, he has trained with a multitude of weapons, which he has mastered. He has even trained with firearms, although he detests them, and will refuse to use them except in the most extreme of circumstances. He trains relentlessly, and is as strong as a person of his build and size can be.

Batman’s costume is laced with Kevlar and can resist small weapons fire. He can use his cape to glide short distances, and the eye pieces in his cowl allow sight in the infrared spectrum. The utility belt he wears holds several pouches, each containing various chemicals, gadgets, and weapons to aid in his crime-fighting, including acetylene torches, breathing apparatuses, gas pellets, lockpicks, and other items. The most notable of these is his “Batarangs”, sharp, bat-shaped throwing weapons which he wields with unerring accuracy. He also has a “Batline”, a grappling hook and wire which he uses from climbing and swinging through city streets.

He is a master of disguise, an escape artist, and skilled in sleight of hand. He is a competent enough actor that, in his ‘Matches’ Mallone disguise, he has infiltrated a number of criminal organizations to gather information.

Despite having no superhuman powers, Batman is incredibly adaptive, learning to operate in zero gravity, strange dimensions, and other unusual environments quickly, often on the fly.

Batman drives the Batmobile, an armored vehicle, which has gone through a number of models over the years. In all versions, it is a high-performance vehicle with computer-amplified control systems and can be operated by remote control. It has direct communications to his various allies, including butler Alfred Pennyworth, and computer genius Oracle (Barbara Gordon). He is also known to use other vehicles, including a Batplane, Batboat, and the Whirly-Bat (a small helicopter).

He bases his operations out of the Batcave, a deep, vast complex beneath his mansion home, which contains state-of-the-art computers (complete with the criminal files from most major local, national, and international police organizations). Each of his vehicles has a housing in the cave; often several models are kept in various states of working order. The Batcave also contains a “museum” housing souvenirs of various challenging cases, including an enormous penny, a full-sized model tyrannosaurus, and the costume of a previous Robin (Jason Todd).

Power Grid:
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3
Speed: 2
Durability: 3
Energy Projection: 1
Fighting Skills: 6

Roger Ott
Mar 20, 2011, 12:18 pm
Just had a chance to skim over this so far, but it seems pretty comprehensive.

Stuart V
Mar 20, 2011, 02:00 pm

captainswift wrote:

(Note: This entry is only meant to cover Batman as he is relevant to the Marvel Universe)

BATMAN

Another interesting entry choice.

captainswift wrote:

IDENTITY: Secret on ‘Earth-1’; Publicly Known on Earth-616 from comic book appearances

Slight rephrasing to get into handbook format:
("Earth-1") Secret; (Earth-616) Publicly known
We'd probably clarify why he's publicly known in his history, but it is an unusual circumstance, so we might cover it here.
Oh, and for what it's worth, we've deliberately avoided using reality-designators we know are already in use elsewhere. There's been the odd case of numbers being used both in Marvel and by other comics, but surprisingly few. So, in theory, most of the DC multiverse designators would be the same in Marvel's numbering system - e.g. if you asked Roma or Merlyn which reality was Earth-1, they'd point you to DC's Earth-1.

captainswift wrote:

FIRST APPEARANCE: Detective Comics #27 (1939); (in a Marvel co-published comic) DC Special Series #27 (1981); (confirmed appearance of ‘Earth-1’ Batman interacting with Earth-616) DC Versus Marvel/Marvel Versus DC #1 (1996)

Correct, though arguably there's Batman's presence behind the scenes in Thor #207.

captainswift wrote:

He was inspired by the sight of a bat to create a costume to strike fear in the hearts of criminals, and created the identity of Batman.

Try
Inspired by a bat which unexpectedly flew in through an open window, he created a costume intended to strike fear into criminals' hearts, becoming the Batman.

captainswift wrote:

Batman and Robin encountered Earth-616’s Bullseye (Lester) in his Batcave, and defeated him.

Bullseye has a Batcave too? Holy copyright infringing assassin, Batman!
Try
Earth-616 assassin Bullseye (Lester) appeared in Batman's Batcave, but Batman and Robin defeated him.

Or, if you can work in mention of the Batcave earlier, around the time when the gadgets are mentioned, you can have the less clunky "appeared in the Batcave". Especially as you mention Batcave here, and then give a longer explanation of it later when the Mole Man turns up - better to explain what it is the first time it is mentioned.

captainswift wrote:

The Brothers decided direct confrontation was futile, and instead chose “champions” from the Earths of their respective realities.

Slightly shorter:
Deciding direct confrontation was futile, the Brothers chose "champions" for their respective realities' Earths.

captainswift wrote:

Batman was among the chosen Earth-1 heroes, and pitted against Captain America (Steve Rogers).

Chosen among the Earth-1 heroes, Batman was pitted against Captain America (Steve Rogers).

Roger Ott
Mar 20, 2011, 04:32 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Another interesting entry choice.
Correct, though arguably there's Batman's presence behind the scenes in Thor #207.

Okay, now I'm gonna have to look this up.

Stuart V
Mar 20, 2011, 05:01 pm

Roger Ott wrote:

Okay, now I'm gonna have to look this up.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/1...-dc-crossover/

Michael Regan
Mar 20, 2011, 05:40 pm
Minor note: The current DC Multiverse has an Earth-1 so, in most areas, the previous multiverse uses Earth-One.

Sidney Osinga
Mar 20, 2011, 07:21 pm
Interesting entry. However, I do feel that that following should be altered.

Over the intervening years, Batman acquired a sidekick, Robin (Tim Drake),

This is not really accurate as it leaves out Dick Grayson, who has also been involved in cross-overs between the Marvel and DC universes. A suggestion on how to reword it.
"Over the intervening years, Batman had several partners who used the name Robin; the first, Richard "Dick" Grayson, later took the identity of Nightwing, while Tim Drake was Robin during most of his interactions with inhabitants of Earth-616."



 

Final historical text from Comixfan:


Stuart V
Mar 20, 2011, 07:26 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

Minor note: The current DC Multiverse has an Earth-1 so, in most areas, the previous multiverse uses Earth-One.

I figure it's pretty much the same reality. Look at 616 before and after AoA or HoM. Both times 616 reverted more or less to its previous state, but the impact of some changes remained. Current Earth-1 appears to be virtually identical to pre-Crisis Earth-One, at least on a superficial level; why can't it be the same reality, de-merged from all the other DC multiverse ones, but with some lingering alterations?

Keep in mind that Crisis proved in the long run to simply a larger scale version of some of the other reality mergers we've seen. Compare and contrast:
Different realities are combined, to create a composite reality where some individuals are merged with their counterparts (Kamandi and Tommy Tomorrow), while others lacking counterparts have their memories altered to fit with the new timeline's history (Psycho Pirate retains his memories of the previous timeline, just like Bishop did in AoA; Power Girl learns in Infinite Crisis that she was always Earth-2's Kryptonian Power Girl, but her memories changed to try and fit her into a reality where she couldn't be a Kryptonian). We've seen the same kind of merger, only more extensive and combining far different individuals, with Amalgam. We got it again with World's Collide, which combined Milestone and DC a la Amalgam, with huge changes, and a less violent version with the current merger of DC and Milestone, that simply transported the Milestone types into DC, altering memories for everyone but Icon and Superman, so that they all think they always shared a reality. And we got it with World War III, which combined the Heroes Reborn pocket universe with Wildstorm. Deathmate was a similar deal, but for Image and Valiant. 2000 A.D's Judge Dredd story Helter Skelter mentioned a much nastier reality merger, caused by a dimension warp. And just like the two Marvel/DC meetings covered above, the Milestone and DC guys mostly don't recall World's Collide when they meet this second time; one way reality tries to heal itself is by messing with their memories.

When Infinite Crisis split things off again, the merged reality continues to exist (as Earth-0), but we also get back many of the old realities from prior to the merger, albeit with some lasting alterations. Which is also true with AoA; the altered reality persists. Shattered Image shows another example of this, where combined realities split up, complete with new individuals coming (back?) into existence to cover the gaps left by people who no longer exist in a given reality.



Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 20, 2011, 09:00 pm
CAPTAIN MARVIN

REAL NAME: Mar-Vinn
ALIASES: Wotta “Wott” Lawsuit
IDENTITY: Secret on Earth; known to the Kreep government
OCCUPATION: Astronaut, spy, nuclear physicist
CITIZENSHIP: Kreeps, Reality-665
PLACE OF BIRTH: Unrevealed; presumably Kreeps’ homeworld, Reality-665
KNOWN RELATIVES: None
GROUP AFFILIATION: Unidentified team of Kreeps under Colonel Egg-Nogg’s command
EDUCATION: Apparently Kreep military training including combat and nuclear physics
FIRST APPEARANCE: Not Brand Echh#9 (1968)

HISTORY:
Kreep Captain Mar-Vinn, under the command of Colonel Egg-Nogg, arrived on Earth on a top secret mission to obtain scrap metal. Under unrevealed circumstances he took on the heroic identity of Captain Marvin. He also usurped the identity of nuclear physicist, Wotta Lawsuit, who had been killed in a ferryboat collision at Fort Mudge. After spotting a Scent-ry (a Kreep robot) he contacted Egg-Nogg, admitting he could no longer recall his mission. Egg-Nogg declined to remind him, claiming he wished to keep his own mind uncluttered to deal with other matters (more likely it was because Egg-Nogg wanted to pursue a romance with Mar-Vinn's girlfriend Uno-Who, who was with Egg-Nogg on board the mothership). Mar-Vinn located the only phone booth in the county and changed back to Lawsuit, a process that took a couple of hours. As Lawsuit, he arrived at the military base the Cape, aka the C*p* for the first time, where he was briefly interrogated by security head Clairol Dandruff. This interrogation was interrupted by the now rampaging Scent-ry, and Mar-Vinn dashed back to the phone booth and, apparently much more quickly, changed back to Captain Marvin to deal with the robot. During the fight he placed a long distance phone call (this time using the phone from the phone booth) to Egg-Nogg, asking what the robot's weaknesses were; Egg-Nogg claimed he didn't think the robot had any. Remembering his ultimate weapon, Mar-Vinn, projected home movies, which horrified the Scent-ry but compelled it to watch them anyway. Mar-Vinn recalled his mission and proceeded to dismantle the Scent-ry.

HEIGHT: 6’2” EYES: Blue
WEIGHT: 220 lbs. HAIR: Silver

ABILITIES/ACCESSORIES:
Mar-Vinn has demonstrated superhuman strength, speed (fast enough to keep just ahead of a giant robot), and durability. He has oversized binoculars, a wrist communicator which he uses to contact his mothership (but which also picks up radio signals from other sources and apparently requires money to use), a boot that can trip giant-sized beings (the boot resembles an ordinary boot but Mar-Vinn claims it is in fact a weapon), a screwdriver-like device, a shovel, and an “ultimate weapon” that plays home movies. He carries additional equipment whose purpose is as yet unrevealed. He keeps his equipment and change of clothes in a large sack; it’s possible that this sack shrinks some items when not in use to fit inside the sack. His spacesuit has a badge whose text is constantly changing.

Power Grid:
Intelligence: 1
Strength: 4
Speed: 4
Durability: 4
Energy Projection: 1
Fighting Skills: 3

Note: I used the version found in Essential Captain Marvel v1, which was in B&W. I couldn't find a colour copy of the story and so had to make an educated guess on his eye and hair colour based on Mar-Vell at the time. Given that he seems to have some knowledge of nuclear physics I considered the possibility of increasing his intelligence on the grounds that he had amnesia, but he never actually applied his nuclear physics knowledge in the story and forgot at least one other thing briefly (his ultimate weapon). Plus he claimed to have used his last dime on his wrist communicator and yet later found money to use a pay phone to phone the spaceship. Plus nearly everyone in that reality is pretty stupid. So on the balance I determined that his memory loss was the result of low intelligence and not amnesia.

Sidney Osinga
Mar 20, 2011, 10:22 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

CAPTAIN MARVEL

Shouldn't It be Captain Marvin?

Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 20, 2011, 10:37 pm

Sidney Osinga wrote:

Shouldn't It be Captain Marvin?

Crap. Yeah. Not sure how that changed. I did have it titled right when I was typing it out.

Roger Ott
Mar 20, 2011, 11:14 pm
Man, ya gotta love Not Brand Echh....

Clairol Dandruff, indeed.

captainswift
Mar 20, 2011, 11:21 pm
Thanks for feedback, everyone. I almost didn't post this one, because the JLA/Avengers part was too much about the story and not so much about Batman. It was very hard to isolate one character from that story and describe his role in it without describing the story itself. However, I'd already put the work in, so there it is.

Sidney Osinga wrote:

This is not really accurate as it leaves out Dick Grayson, who has also been involved in cross-overs between the Marvel and DC universes. A suggestion on how to reword it.
"Over the intervening years, Batman had several partners who used the name Robin; the first, Richard "Dick" Grayson, later took the identity of Nightwing, while Tim Drake was Robin during most of his interactions with inhabitants of Earth-616."

Thank you. That's a fantastic addendum. I was trying to cover the most basic basics, but otherwise stick to his interactions with Marvel. I wanted to include Dick, but I also didn't want to make a laundry list of companions who weren't directly involved in the crossovers. (Also, I was actually watching the word count this time).

I think your wording there is perfect, though, so consider that inserted.


Michael Regan
Mar 21, 2011, 03:59 pm
The difficulty with such coverage is determining just the right way to write up one biography for multiple counterparts of a single character.
I feel you've covered Batman well. Nicely done CW.

Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 22, 2011, 12:25 am

Roger Ott wrote:

Man, ya gotta love Not Brand Echh....

Clairol Dandruff, indeed.

It was very surreal, since I wanted my effort to seem as professional looking as possible, to report on all the weirdness in that story, especially the oddball character names, with a straight face.

captainswift
Mar 22, 2011, 03:28 am
Are we sure that story was his only appearance? Going by memory, I'm pretty sure it was the only appearance of Mar-Vinn in Not Brand Ecch, but if I'm not mistaken, the 80s title, What The--? is also considered Earth-665. I'm not positive there were any appearances there, either. I'm just wondering.

Good entry. I love Brecch.

Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 22, 2011, 04:08 am

captainswift wrote:

Are we sure that story was his only appearance? Going by memory, I'm pretty sure it was the only appearance of Mar-Vinn in Not Brand Ecch, but if I'm not mistaken, the 80s title, What The--? is also considered Earth-665. I'm not positive there were any appearances there, either. I'm just wondering.

Well, thus far I haven't found any online references to him. I also don't recall him in What The though granted it's been a long time. I think I'm prety safe because both titles, when they used parody characters (What The also used original characters like Milk & Cookies) tended to focus on then then current continuity. Even back then Mar-Vell had been dead awhile so I'm probably safe there.

Michael Regan
Mar 22, 2011, 09:04 am
I figure it's pretty much the same reality.

DC is very different from Marvel in terms of alternate realities and parallel Earths. Unfortunately the specific naming convention of their multiple Earths tends to make things more complicated than is actually necessary.

The latest graphic novel Superman: Earth One (which takes place on the current Earth-1) displays a different version of the Man of Steel than has previously been seen.

Previous to the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Barry Allan and Jay Garrick existed on different Earths (Earth-One and Earth-Two respectively), and following the CoIE their histories both take place on New Earth (or Earth-0). The same thing exists for Alan Scott and Hal Jordan, etc. There is a new Earth-2 which contains alternate versions of Golden Age characters.

DCU: Legacies has cleared up much of the ambiguous history problems very simply: All events in the DC Universe from the beginning of the Golden Age have occurred in the past of New Earth, removing any reference to a multiverse. In this, the stories may all be considered valid just, well, different. There was even a Crisis on Infinite Earths but it did not involve other Earths. Latest issues of Brightest Day have featured the Anti-Monitor so this can certainly be confirmed and was likely a much smaller scale invasion of New Earth from the anti-mater universe.

There have definitely been "trickles" in from the previous multiverse which have never been solidly explained. The Psycho Pirate has his memory of the previous reality, the golden age Superman and Superboy from Earth-Prime survived in a sort of pocket reality, but Power Girl is an unexplained anomaly. Originally from Earth-Two, she actually came face-to-face with her Earth-2 counterparts a few years back.

The key difference between Marvel and DC realities is that DC alternates exist from the Big Bang forwards (for the most part) and Marvel alternates stem from alternate decisions splitting realities or chrononal interference (for the most part).

Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 22, 2011, 12:29 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

DCU: Legacies has cleared up much of the ambiguous history problems very simply: All events in the DC Universe from the beginning of the Golden Age have occurred in the past of New Earth, removing any reference to a multiverse. In this, the stories may all be considered valid just, well, different. There was even a Crisis on Infinite Earths but it did not involve other Earths. Latest issues of Brightest Day have featured the Anti-Monitor so this can certainly be confirmed and was likely a much smaller scale invasion of New Earth from the anti-mater universe.

Off topic:
I can see DCU Legacies being ignored pretty quickly. It started out okay but then it started rearranging the chronology of events from what had been established before for no logical reason that I can think of (unless the narrator is misremembering stuff, which is a problem if the series is supposed to set up the current status quo). This has the rather astonishing effect of making the DCU history even more confusing than it had previously been. And that Legion backup story, while cute, falls apart pretty quickly when you consider that the Legion is unlikely to keep compounding the same problem over and over, and is probably invalid from the get-go, thus raising questions of the rest of the series.

The previous History of the DC Universe did a much better job at keeping almost everything it could and not messing around too much with the chronology. In fact if you tweak it a bit (putting Wonder Woman back in the JLA at the start) it actually works better than the DCU Legacies model.

How to get this back on topic? Well, er, the amateur submissions here are probably going to be much better than any efforts at a Who's Who type submission because everyone agrees at least on the broad strokes of Marvel history even if we disagree sometimes on the specifics.

Michael Regan
Mar 22, 2011, 12:37 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Off topic:
I can see DCU Legacies being ignored pretty quickly. It started out okay but then it started rearranging the chronology of events from what had been established before for no logical reason that I can think of (unless the narrator is misremembering stuff, which is a problem if the series is supposed to set up the current status quo). This has the rather astonishing effect of making the DCU history even more confusing than it had previously been. And that Legion backup story, while cute, falls apart pretty quickly when you consider that the Legion is unlikely to keep compounding the same problem over and over, and is probably invalid from the get-go, thus raising questions of the rest of the series.

I disagree with confusion, and I do not remember any alteration of chronology but certainly there is quite a bit of compression at play. I'm not really considering the back-up stories in my personal assessment, but it may be noted that although there is currently a multiverse of just over 50 realities, each reality can still have multiple possible futures. The Legion should be considered one such possible future... well, Legions to be considered alternate futures... well, yeah :dizzy:

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

The previous History of the DC Universe did a much better job at keeping almost everything it could and not messing around too much with the chronology. In fact if you tweak it a bit (putting Wonder Woman back in the JLA at the start) it actually works better than the DCU Legacies model.

The one that was badly timed with the release of Crisis on Infinite Earths? The problem there is that it is solidly the pre-CoEI multiverse which really does not exist in spite of the parallels displayed in DCU:L.

Roger Ott
Mar 22, 2011, 02:02 pm
Man, trying to put together all this DCU multiverse talk is making my head hurt!

Make Mine Marvel!  :Biggrin:

Michael Regan
Mar 22, 2011, 02:14 pm

Roger Ott wrote:

Man, trying to put together all this DCU multiverse talk is making my head hurt!

Make Mine Marvel!  :Biggrin:

:lol: I can explain it in a variety of ways and think I can get just about anyone to understand the concept... if they want to ;)

Andy E. Nystrom
Mar 22, 2011, 03:47 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I disagree with confusion, and I do not remember any alteration of chronology but certainly there is quite a bit of compression at play.

My comics are still a bit out of order due to last year's bedbug problem, but I'll try to hunt down the issues and list the timeline problems I've noticed in a DC section elsewhere on the boards. If you'd like I can PM you when I do so we can continue the debate then, since it might take me a while to gather all the issues, and again I think it's more suitable to a DC section of the boards.

Michael Regan wrote:

The one that was badly timed with the release of Crisis on Infinite Earths? The problem there is that it is solidly the pre-CoEI multiverse which really does not exist in spite of the parallels displayed in DCU:L.

Actually it came out shortly afterward and was firmly in the post-CoIE Earths DCU, covering even the events of Legends. Even less of a multiverse then than there is now. That smaller scale Crisis you credit DCU Legacies with was reported in History of the DCU. I no longer own my copy due to past financial problems but Perez drew a really nice Suicide Squad as I recall.

Thankfully for doing these amateur submissions Spidey has had the only *major* reality shift and even then aa lot of the broad beats are still intact.

Michael Regan
Mar 22, 2011, 06:22 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

My comics are still a bit out of order due to last year's bedbug problem, but I'll try to hunt down the issues and list the timeline problems I've noticed in a DC section elsewhere on the boards. If you'd like I can PM you when I do so we can continue the debate then, since it might take me a while to gather all the issues, and again I think it's more suitable to a DC section of the boards.

Actually it came out shortly afterward and was firmly in the post-CoIE Earths DCU, covering even the events of Legends. Even less of a multiverse then than there is now. That smaller scale Crisis you credit DCU Legacies with was reported in History of the DCU. I no longer own my copy due to past financial problems but Perez drew a really nice Suicide Squad as I recall.

Thankfully for doing these amateur submissions Spidey has had the only *major* reality shift and even then aa lot of the broad beats are still intact.

Yes, "we" have derailed this thread enough but a new thread in the DC section would be better so that discussion can be joined by others.
Part of my long-term plan is an attempt at a DC continuity/chronology of some kind.

Eduardo M.
May 15, 2011, 11:09 pm
Here's a question for everyone here.

How would you do an entry on the Floating Super-Hero Poker Game?

If it were up to me, I'd write ala the other event entries. Using the appendix website entry as a base, I'd include all the games they list there as official games of the FSHPG, with games described in the notes section being written about under the legacy portion of the entry.

anyone have any other ideas?

Andy E. Nystrom
May 16, 2011, 03:09 am

Eduardo M. wrote:

Here's a question for everyone here.

How would you do an entry on the Floating Super-Hero Poker Game?

If it were up to me, I'd write ala the other event entries. Using the appendix website entry as a base, I'd include all the games they list there as official games of the FSHPG, with games described in the notes section being written about under the legacy portion of the entry.

anyone have any other ideas?

Event was my first thought as well. But then I recalled that the Great Game, which, like the poker game, is recurring, a Group model was used; and certainly many of the poker players are recurring. Specific matches could probably be tackled under History.

Roger Ott
May 16, 2011, 10:47 am
Yeah, I'd go with Andy's idea. Seems it would be easier to write a profile for something that doesn't have a finite ending in that fashion.

Eduardo M.
May 16, 2011, 12:06 pm
I'd forgetten about the Great Game. Andy's probably right. that model would make a better fit. I could see guys like Thing, Wolverine, and Nick Fury getting headshots and maybe also sticking in the cover to Thing #8.

Michael Regan
May 16, 2011, 12:25 pm
A poker game could also be handled like a team with limited text and "membership" details as they have been revealed.

Eduardo M.
Mar 9, 2011, 02:44 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Oops. Knew there was something wrong when I reached the end - I thought there was another entry. Must have skipped over it accidentally when I was ticking the multiquote boxes.

:mwahaha: :Devil:

Incredibly minor nitpick - capital letters for the start of each header - e.g. None, Professional criminal, etc.

We'd have to rule whether he was secret or not - since he's been captured a few times, in all likelihood he is known, as you suggest.

Unrevealed, rather than unknown. Same comment re: education.

This isn't his first appearance, but, to be fair, you wouldn't be expected to realise that.

As always, avoid first, because it inevitably will turn out not to be the first. Which is the case here.

If you clarify, use the whole name. In this instance, I don't think there's another Mach-IV, so you could get away with not clarifying.


But these three do need clarified, since there have been quite a few Beetles now.


Ock needs a clarifier too.


It may well not be something anyone has picked up on, but if you check, you'll see the handbooks only ever use Doctor in the headings of entries. Everywhere else, we use the shorter Dr. We do lots of little space saving tricks like that - individually they might not save much, but combined it's surprising how much space it saves.

Gocking had a rematch with the group at the end of Doomwar as well.