Historical text from Comixfan. Closing this thread after moving all the old text over because it's been replaced by a newer thread: https://whowatchesthewatchers.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=293

Stuart V
Jun 26, 2009, 07:59 pm
For no other reason than it annoys me when I keep seeing so-called info sites getting certain things consistently wrong, I'm resurrecting a thread that got lost when the site had its hiccup a while back. In no particular order, as stuff occurs to me, I want to highlight common errors which perpetuate across the internet because one person misreads something and then others cut and paste that error across sites (often, but not always Wiki sites) until they become widely accepted, to the extent that when you try and correct them (again, talking Wiki sites), other posters come in and undo the change because they know better (based on what they've read online, rather than in the comics themselves). I might only do this once, I might do it intermittently, I might do it regularly - I don't know yet. Others are welcome to join in.

In no particular order:

"Devil Dinosaur is of above average intelligence, at least for a dinosaur."
No, he's not. He's of above average intelligence, period. Don't let his inability to speak (Nextwave clone notwithstanding) fool you. Devil is human level smart, no question. Devil plans ahead. An animal, even a smart one, might remember stuff, it might react to stuff, they might even plan to handle a past problem if they encounter it again (such as storing food for winter), but they don't anticipate potential future events they might one day encounter and then plan for them - that requires the ability to both comprehend the future as a concept and to imagine stuff you haven't personally experienced. The best example (but not the only one) of Devil doing this is in his own series, when he faces flying alien robots. Devil has previously scouted out the valley he lives in, noticed a region of geysers, and filed away that location so that in the off-chance he ever faces a flying opponent who won't come down to ground level to attack and instead attacks from out of Devil's reach, then Devil can lead them to the geysers, make sure his opponent is in position, and then kick a boulder into the blowhole to trigger an eruption at the correct moment (using tools, not taking chances on random eruptions), so that the flying attacker will be struck by a high velocity blast of boiling water. That's forward planning for an unlikely to happen event that he's never seen or experienced, but one Devil nonetheless conceived of.

Wilhelm Lohmer, the original Master Man, isn't German. He's American. This was implied in his original appearances, when he was noted to be a Bundist- generally speaking, Germans weren't Bundists, Americans of German descent were. It was explicitly stated in Captain America: The Medusa Effect, written by Master Man's creator, Roy Thomas.

Isaiah Bradley was a victim of experiments to recreate the Super Soldier Serum, not to create it. It's simply a timeline issue - Steve Rogers was already active as Cap before Pearl Harbor, and had been active with the Invaders from December 1941. Isaiah didn't enlist until February 1942.

Editing to add: I see this still being debated back and forward on some places on the internet, and I see the handbooks being brought into the debate, which is why I feel the need to comment. Despite The Truth itself setting the timeline that makes it impossible for Isaiah to come before Steve, despite the presence of a Captain America comic shown in The Truth that predates the experiments on the Camp Cathcart "volunteers", despite the creators of The Truth quite unequivocaly stating that Steve came first in interviews and The Truth TPB's appendix, there are some people doggedly holding on to the misconception that Marvel's official stance is that Isaiah has been retconned to come before Steve.

"They've retconned it since The Truth came out, that's why Patriot says Isaiah was the first in early issues of Young Avengers." Nope, Patriot just has the dates wrong, and Steve didn't see the value in correcting an angry young man whose grandfather was horribly mistreated - going "actually, they murdered all those other soldiers and abused your grandfather later than you think" doesn't make what was done any better.

Isaiah's entry, Patriot's entry, and the WWII entry in Blockbusters of the Marvel Universe all say Steve got experimented on before Isaiah. "Oh, the Blockbusters entry on WWII has probably got wrong info they need to correct." "The [handbook] team probably only look at big events and don't catch all the lines of dialogue". Sorry, no, not even close. While we can and do make mistakes now and then, I can say with absolute certainty that we didn't in regards to the timeline here.

So, to make it clear - Steve became Captain America and joined the Invaders before Isaiah even enlisted. They haven't retconned things to shift Isaiah's enlistment and experimentation earlier. They haven't retconned things to shift Steve's experiments later (way too much interaction with other characters and thus too many knock on effects for that). As of April 2011 Marvel's official order of who got experimented on has Steve predating Isaiah by more than a year. This is not my opinion. We didn't guess this when we put it in the handbook. We didn't miss a retcon. This was checked after the newspaper seen in The Crew, and after Patriot's statements in Young Avengers, so both of those were taken into account, and neither of them overrules the timeline as it stood. We specifically asked senior editorial regarding the order of events, and they confirmed the order since seen in multiple handbooks. It hasn't changed since then. And I hate to make a such a big deal out of it, but I don't particularly like people trying to claim the handbooks got it wrong just to win their arguments.

Sunturion isn't wearing armor. Nor is he energy housed inside armor like the LoSH's Wildfire. He's a being of living energy, more like the Living Laser, Monica Rambeau (when she's in light form) or Klaw, and both his human look and his armor look are facades, forms he adopts. There was a Sunturion armor made, which we saw in an issue of Daredevil, but Iron Man Annual #9 clarifies that was created in the hopes of reintegrating the then-dissipated energies of Sunturion; it wasn't the suit he had been wearing, because he isn't wearing a suit.

616 does not come from "the publication date of the first issue of FF #1." Because Alan Moore and Alan Davis have differing accounts, we have conflicting versions of who came up with it and what (if anything) it stands for, but neither one corroborates the FF hypothesis. So please, let that discredited theory die.

Sidney Osinga
Jun 27, 2009, 01:14 am

Stuart V wrote:

"Devil Dinosaur is of above average intelligence, at least for a dinosaur."
No, he's not. He's of above average intelligence, period. Don't let his inability to speak (Nextwave clone notwithstanding) fool you. Devil is human level smart, no question. Devil plans ahead. An animal, even a smart one, might remember stuff, it might react to stuff, they might even plan to handle a past problem if they encounter it again (such as storing food for winter), but they don't anticipate potential future events they might one day encounter and then plan for them - that requires the ability to both comprehend the future as a concept and to imagine stuff you haven't personally experienced. The best example (but not the only one) of Devil doing this is in his own series, when he faces flying alien robots. Devil has previously scouted out the valley he lives in, noticed a region of geysers, and filed away that location so that in the off-chance he ever faces a flying opponent who won't come down to ground level to attack and instead attacks from out of Devil's reach, then Devil can lead them to the geysers, make sure his opponent is in position, and then kick a boulder into the blowhole to trigger an eruption at the correct moment (using tools, not taking chances on random eruptions), so that the flying attacker will be struck by a high velocity blast of boiling water. That's forward planning for an unlikely to happen event that he's never seen or experienced, but one Devil nonetheless conceived of.

That makes sense. He is a mutant after all, and his increased intelligence is part of his abilities. Furthermore, he has shown the ability to understand when people talk to him. And he has shown greater comperhenion skills than an animal would possess. In the Fallen Angels mini series, he was teleported to two alien worlds from his home to modern day Earth and the planet Coconut Grove without reacting negatively.

Anyways, I guess the point is that there is a difference between an animal having above average intelligence and one having human level intelligence.

Michael Regan
Jun 27, 2009, 09:32 pm
I'm dying for more Stuart

John H
Jun 28, 2009, 12:04 am
How about the Braddock twins as mutants or whatever they are? I thought that they were not mutants. But her association with the X-Men confuses the issue.
But is Jamie Braddock a mutant?




Stuart V

Jun 28, 2009, 06:23 am

John H wrote:

How about the Braddock twins as mutants or whatever they are? I thought that they were not mutants. But her association with the X-Men confuses the issue.
But is Jamie Braddock a mutant?

That one's murky. Prior to joining the X-Men, nobody ever checked Betsy over with a mutant detection device, but she definitely triggered them around the time she was first with the X-Men. Brian, however, isn't a mutant. Jamie is in the 198 Files as a mutant, but I can say outright (since we discussed it amongst the Handbook writers at the time) that his presence there is more down to O*N*E*s assumption that if his sister is a mutant and he has powers then he too must be a mutant - now, they could be right in that assumption, but they could also be wrong. The 198 Files was written as an "in-universe" document, and hence there's a few cases where the info there is deliberately just a little off, because there's information the in-universe scribes wouldn't be privy to.

Is Betsy a mutant? Her powers developed late for a mutant (she was in her 20s), and appear to have been initially triggered by psychic contact with Dr. Synne, an agent of the Mastermind computer. But none of that precludes her being a mutant - Polaris was a similar late developer whose powers required outside stimulation to active. Mastermind later told Betsy and Brian that their powers come from their father being from Otherworld. So, some people assume that means they are hybrids, like Namor, which makes them a kind of mutant. But that too has its problems. There are normal humans on Otherworld, as well as all the mystical races, and James Braddock appeared to be one of them. He's not the same species as Merlyn and Roma, as far as we know, because Merlyn apparently isn't an Otherworld native - he says he "established Otherworld" in Excalibur #50. We've had no signs that there's any other members of Merlyn's species on Otherworld than him and his daughter.

I've seen some people say Betsy has telepathic powers because that's a natural ability on Otherworld. Nope. There's a few telepaths on Otherworld, but it doesn't appear to be that widespread a phenomenon (though James might have been one, though there's no evidence of it).

Where does that leave us?

Brian's powers are magical. We've seen how he got his original powers, and we saw how his body was rebuilt from scratch to give him his later powers and make them innate. Brian does not trigger mutant detection devices. He's not a mutant, and he's the only family member we are reasonably sure about.

Jamie's powers were activated by magic. Nobody has ever scanned him with a mutant detector, afaik, and frankly, given his ability to manipulate reality, it wouldn't matter now, as he could presumably make them detect him even if he's not a mutant, or not detect them even if he is.

Betsy's powers were activated indirectly by a computer built by her father, a computer that has the same manipulative streak as Merlyn and Roma. The first time she checked out on a mutant scanning device was when she was with the X-Men; at that point in time Roma was forging links between the X-Men and the Braddocks because she needed them tied together and for the X-Men, with Betsy among them, to die in order to trigger the formation of Excalibur. Betsy being considered a mutant helped that plan, and Roma is perfectly capable of making Betsy trigger mutant detectors even if she isn't actually a mutant.

And so it comes back to: We don't really know. Our evidence for mutant is inconclusive - Betsy detects as a mutant, but we know Roma has the ability to mess with that and had the motive to do so - but our evidence for non-mutant is effectively circumstantial - Roma has the ability and motive to have engineered it, but we have no actual hard proof she did so. Any assumptions about Jamie hang on Betsy's status. All we can be certain of is that the Braddock siblings had their lives manipulated from the off by some very powerful and devious individuals, which means that even now, anything we think we know about their origins may be subject to revision.

DrGoodwrench
Jun 28, 2009, 08:58 am
I know it's on one of the other threads here, but you might want to include the thing about Le Peregrine's non-Avenger status which confused me for a time.

John H
Jun 28, 2009, 11:07 am
I just realized from reading the discussion in this thread, Jamie's powers are pretty formidable. They seem similar in a way to Roma's and Merlin's. Roma made the X-men invisible (to certain kinds of detection) after reviving them in Dallas, whereas Jamie made Betsy invisible after he revived she. And Merlin did the same to Brian in CB&MI:13 (though not invisible).
If Jamie had not gone mad, would he be on a level with Roma?
Was it ever stated how Jamie lost his mind?

Also, is Meggan related to the fairy folk?
She was shown to have a connection to the ancient race the Neuri. But I never thought she was a fairy.

Michael Regan
Jun 28, 2009, 11:20 am
Jamie was torchered and drivin insane by the cyborg Doctor Crocodile. He now views the world around him as nothing more than a dream which he does not wake from.

Stuart V
Jun 28, 2009, 01:41 pm

DrGoodwrench wrote:

I know it's on one of the other threads here, but you might want to include the thing about Le Peregrine's non-Avenger status which confused me for a time.

Not sure what you mean on that - le Peregrine isn't an Avenger, never has been afaik.

DrGoodwrench wrote:

Also, is Meggan related to the fairy folk?
She was shown to have a connection to the ancient race the Neuri. But I never thought she was a fairy.

No, she's not a faery as far as we can tell. That's another common mistake people make. She's a mutant. She's not connected to the Neuri as such - she's connected to natural energies, including magical energies, which is what gave her and the Neuri an affinity for one another, but there's no other known connection between the two. The only people who have called her faerie were using it as a descriptor rather than a statement of knowledge (e.g. she looks a bit like a faerie, but they didn't know her genetic/racial background, they were going on looks) and were people who came from magical backgrounds (and thus were likely to tailor their descriptions into the frames of reference they are familiar with). We've had several writers call her a mutant in the text, we've had Meggan identify herself as a mutant, and we've had at least two individuals with scanning capability and knowledge of both mutants and magical beings identify her as a mutant. Chris Claremont even said in his introduction of Meggan to U.S. audiences that those who didn't know better might think she was a faerie, but she was actually a mutant.

John H wrote:

I just realized from reading the discussion in this thread, Jamie's powers are pretty formidable. They seem similar in a way to Roma's and Merlin's. Roma made the X-men invisible (to certain kinds of detection) after reviving them in Dallas, whereas Jamie made Betsy invisible after he revived she. And Merlin did the same to Brian in CB&MI:13 (though not invisible).
If Jamie had not gone mad, would he be on a level with Roma?
Was it ever stated how Jamie lost his mind?

Michael Regan wrote:

Jamie was torchered and drivin insane by the cyborg Doctor Crocodile. He now views the world around him as nothing more than a dream which he does not wake from.

Michael's got it mostly right. Jamie was tortured, though on Doc Croc's orders rather than by Croc himself; Croc's witchwoman did the actual work. And to be fair on Croc, Jamie was both a pretty unpleasant criminal, and Croc's punishment was being done to rehabilitate him, not for any less noble motives. It's just Jamie got broken out mid-process. By his last appearance he did seem to have regained some understanding that the world wasn't all a dream, and even a measure of his original decency (he did, after all, sacrifice himself to save his sister and the human race).

There's a difference between Roma & Merlyn's powers, and those of Jamie, Mad Jim Jaspers, and other reality warpers. Roma and Merlyn are/were powerful mages/scientists, and could use that knowledge to perform some incredible feats. Jamie, Jaspers, etc, can just change the world around them at a whim; they don't need to understand how their powers work, they can just innately do it. J & J's upper power levels are theoretically much higher than Merlyn and Roma, who win out as much because of their devious planning abilities as their raw power..

Zach Kinkead
Jun 28, 2009, 01:47 pm
Isaiah Bradley was a victim of experiments to recreate the Super Soldier Serum, not to create it. It's simply a timeline issue - Steve Rogers was already active as Cap before Pearl Harbor, and had been active with the Invaders from December 1941. Isaiah didn't enlist until February 1942.
It probably doesn’t help any that the characters themselves keep making that mistake.

Stuart V
Jun 28, 2009, 02:34 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:

It probably doesn’t help any that the characters themselves keep making that mistake.

To be fair, the original plan with The Truth was to have Isaiah and co come first. The decision to move the series into 616 after the story was underway scuppered that, because the 1942 date of The Truth didn't gell with the 616 dates for Rogers becoming Cap. And yes, Patriot in particular believes his grandfather was experimented on first, which can be put down to a lot of people not knowing the comparative dates of the two sets of experiments. Steve presumably either didn't realise it either, or was just too polite to correct Elijah - after all, the when it happened to Isaiah and the others from Cathcart is less important than the wrongness in what was done.

John H
Jun 28, 2009, 05:52 pm
Speaking of Jamie and Mad Jim Jaspers... the Scarlet Witch's mutant "hex" powers had been described as manipulating time on some level. In Byrne's Avengers West Coast, it was explained when Pym did an experiment.
And then it was described as manipulating Chaos Magic.
And then as reality warping, resulting in House of M/M-Day.
I don't know how her power was described before all of this, pre-1989, except to say it was a probability hex.

Zach Kinkead
Jun 28, 2009, 07:39 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Patriot in particular believes his grandfather was experimented on first, …[Steve] was just too polite to correct Elijah - after all, the when it happened to Isaiah and the others from Cathcart is less important than the wrongness in what was done.

Yeah, Patriot was exactly who I was talking about. Sometimes the chip on that kid’s shoulder seems less about disgust over what was done to his grandpa and more about him not being recognized as the original Cap. Steve isn’t the type of guy who’d take that away from someone just for the sake of being technically correct.

Sidney Osinga
Jun 28, 2009, 07:55 pm

Stuart V wrote:

DrGoodwrench wrote:

I know it's on one of the other threads here, but you might want to include the thing about Le Peregrine's non-Avenger status which confused me for a time.

Not sure what you mean on that - le Peregrine isn't an Avenger, never has been afaik.

I think he means that Solo Avengers #6, Hawkeye granted Peregrine honorary membership for the duration of a fight. It was a joke and Hawkeye was being employed by Silver Sable for the mission, not as an Avenger. However, some people do believe that it did mean that Peregrine actually became an Avenger.

skippcomet
Jun 29, 2009, 06:28 pm

John H wrote:

Speaking of Jamie and Mad Jim Jaspers... the Scarlet Witch's mutant "hex" powers had been described as manipulating time on some level. In Byrne's Avengers West Coast, it was explained when Pym did an experiment.
And then it was described as manipulating Chaos Magic.
And then as reality warping, resulting in House of M/M-Day.
I don't know how her power was described before all of this, pre-1989, except to say it was a probability hex.

It is a shame that, since Avengers Finale, the Scarlet Witch has been treated as little more than a plot device for stories about other characters. But that's probably not an appropriate discussion for this particular forum.

Stuart V
Jul 1, 2009, 02:30 pm
Some more, strictly speaking old ones and pet bugbears of mine, but I still see them crop up from time to time, so I may as well reiterate them.

"Captain Britain is a recovering alcoholic."
No. Brian's been seen to drink heavily maybe three times, all under stressful circumstances, and only been seen to be really drunk once, when he'd literally witnessed his sister's death over and over on television. He did quit drinking, but that was because he realised that when he gets drunk it makes whatever mood he is in much worse (if annoyed, he can get belligerant, if sad he gets maudlin), and Brian dislikes not being in control of himself, both because he's got an overwhelming sense of duty/doing the right thing, and because he recognises someone with his kind of power is dangerous if not in control of themself. He quit without any difficulty, and, tellingly, many years later had an alcoholic drink while rejoining/inflitrating the Hellfire Club, but only had one and went back to being teetotal without any problem. An alcoholic can't have "just one drink."

"The current Union Jack, Joe Chapman, was originally intended to be gay and the lover of Kenneth Crichton (Spitfire's son)."
This is based on three things in Joe's first appearance - he's an art student, he was in a college wrestling team, and he (or Kenneth) made a comment about the other one being a heavy sleeper. Yes, clearly this means he is artistic (which is automatically a euphemism for being gay), he likes putting his arms round other men, and he and Kenneth must have slept together, which of course can only mean they had sex. There's absolutely no other way anyone could possibly interpret that information. They couldn't just be college roommates, be good at art and yet straight, and the wrestling comment couldn't be there to explain why Joe would subsequently prove a capable hand to hand fighter against Baron Blood.

Yes, I am being sarcastic. In the same first appearance Kenneth identifies a girl to Joe as the woman he is in love with and wants to marry. If the intent was to hint that Kenneth was Joe's boyfriend, that's a funny way to go about it.

There's several characters who are gay (including the Brian Falsworth Union Jack), and yes, more gay characters would not be unwelcome, but there's never been any evidence Joe is gay, and it wasn't hinted at in his early appearances, as some like to claim. And both the story's writer Roy Thomas (http://imwan.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=17498) and artist John Byrne (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21065) have confirmed no intent to suggest he was.

Stuart V
Jul 3, 2009, 12:48 pm
Another one. Mutant Growth Hormone, despite the name, can be derived from non-mutants. In Alias MGH was being made using Mattie Franklin's DNA. Mattie is not a mutant, she's a magical mutate. Hence we have a confirmed example of non-mutant MGH. This has a corollary: the Owl using his own body to produce MGH does not mean the Owl is a mutant, as many online sites have subsequently claimed (conveniently overlooking Mattie, who no one tries to claim is a mutant). The Owl has occasionally been wrongly identified as a mutant, but his origin was clear - he's a mutate who took a formula to get his powers. The Owl is not one of the 198.

Michael Regan
Jul 3, 2009, 01:06 pm
Great clarification on the Owl, one that I've commonly gotten incorrect.

Perhaps some clarification on Mutant, Mutate, Superhuman, and perhaps even Magical Mutate are in order :Yes:

bigvis497
Jul 3, 2009, 02:05 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

Great clarification on the Owl, one that I've commonly gotten incorrect.

Perhaps some clarification on Mutant, Mutate, Superhuman, and perhaps even Magical Mutate are in order :yes:

I always thought an entry on just the mutant race in genral would be sweet. Make it a nice big one ala the Gamma Mutates/Demons/Vampires entry, it doesn't have to have head shots of everyone but a complete list would be nice.

Zach Kinkead
Jul 3, 2009, 09:16 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Another one. Mutant Growth Hormone, despite the name, can be derived from non-mutants. In Alias MGH was being made using Mattie Franklin's DNA. Mattie is not a mutant, she's a magical mutate. Hence we have a confirmed example of non-mutant MGH. This has a corollary: the Owl using his own body to produce MGH does not mean the Owl is a mutant, as many online sites have subsequently claimed (conveniently overlooking Mattie, who no one tries to claim is a mutant). The Owl has occasionally been wrongly identified as a mutant, but his origin was clear - he's a mutate who took a formula to get his powers. The Owl is not one of the 198.

I always wondered about MGH. It struck me as odd that you’d get “mutant” anything out of Mattie since the kid got her powers supernaturally. I did always assume that the Owl was a mutant though. I figured he was just a “technical” mutant in the Cloak and Dagger sense.

Of course, if MGH really WAS made from mutants then most of it would have become worthless after HoM and that probably would have sparked a pretty big gang war … which could have made for a pretty interesting story if only because it would have lead to something as unlikely as a Daredevil/X-Men crossover.

gorby
Jul 4, 2009, 05:06 am

Stuart V wrote:

This has a corollary: the Owl using his own body to produce MGH does not mean the Owl is a mutant, as many online sites have subsequently claimed (conveniently overlooking Mattie, who no one tries to claim is a mutant). The Owl has occasionally been wrongly identified as a mutant, but his origin was clear - he's a mutate who took a formula to get his powers. The Owl is not one of the 198.

The claim of the Owl being a mutant predates the MGH. He was stated as a mutant in the first OHotMU, but this was corrected in the Deluxe Edition. So, between 64 and 83, Marvel regarded him as a mutant, implying the confusion.

Stuart V
Jul 4, 2009, 05:41 am

gorby wrote:

The claim of the Owl being a mutant predates the MGH. He was stated as a mutant in the first OHotMU, but this was corrected in the Deluxe Edition. So, between 64 and 83, Marvel regarded him as a mutant, implying the confusion.

Not from 64 - to start with he wasn't a mutant. The original OHOTMU got it wrong, and the Deluxe corrected it. The recent MGH bit just added to the confusion.

Andy E. Nystrom
Jul 4, 2009, 10:59 pm
If memory serves, Christopher Priest (Jim Owlsley at the time) incorrectly treated the Falcon as a mutant in Falcon#1, with the result that this is another thing people keep getting wrong (this was discussed a fair bit on an Avengers listserv I used to belong to).

Eric J. Moreels
Jul 5, 2009, 01:23 am

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

If memory serves, Christopher Priest (Jim Owlsley at the time) incorrectly treated the Falcon as a mutant in Falcon#1, with the result that this is another thing people keep getting wrong (this was discussed a fair bit on an Avengers listserv I used to belong to).

I think it was because Falcon was attacked by a Sentinel in #2 that people started assuming he was a mutant because of his telepathic link with Redwing (even though IIRC that was created by the cosmic cube?)

Stuart V
Jul 5, 2009, 07:34 am

Eric J. Moreels wrote:

I think it was because Falcon was attacked by a Sentinel in #2 that people started assuming he was a mutant because of his telepathic link with Redwing (even though IIRC that was created by the cosmic cube?)

Correct. A malfunctioning Sentinel identified Falcon as a mutant, but as Jarvis specifically pointed out in one of the Annuals, that was a malfunctioning Sentinel, and Falcon's only innate power comes from the Cosmic Cube.

As an addendum to the note that the Owl doesn't belong on the various 198 lists, there's a couple of mutants people keep missing off those lists. We've seen that these individuals set of Cerebro and are confirmed mutants; we've seen them since Decimation and they have retained their mutant abilities; one half of this duo has had a handbook entry which specifically states they are mutants that have retained their powers. Heck (and here's the biggest clue to their identities), Beast even confirmed that every mutant in their specific subgroup of mutantkind has remained powered. But, I guess because people don't automatically realise they are mutants and don't always think of these characters as having powers to begin with, nobody lists them.

Anyone care to guess who I am referring to?

DrGoodwrench
Jul 5, 2009, 09:49 am

Stuart V wrote:

As an addendum to the note that the Owl doesn't belong on the various 198 lists, there's a couple of mutants people keep missing off those lists. We've seen that these individuals set of Cerebro and are confirmed mutants; we've seen them since Decimation and they have retained their mutant abilities; one half of this duo has had a handbook entry which specifically states they are mutants that have retained their powers. Heck (and here's the biggest clue to their identities), Beast even confirmed that every mutant in their specific subgroup of mutantkind has remained powered. But, I guess because people don't automatically realise they are mutants and don't always think of these characters as having powers to begin with, nobody lists them.

Anyone care to guess who I am referring to?

Orphan-Maker is part of a duo, is a mutant, and has had a handbook entry. He also does not appear on the list of confirmed remaining mutants on Wikipedia (which I do realise is perhaps not the best source to use). Also, he wears armour, so people might not realise he's a mutant (and his mutant powers have not been revealed). I'm not sure that he fits the 'subgroup' clue, though, so I guess it's not him being referred to here.

EDIT: Having re-read the wikipedia page, I don'tthink Orpham-Maker fits after all, since it seems he has not been confirmed as still having powers.

Andy E. Nystrom
Jul 5, 2009, 11:51 am

Stuart V wrote:

As an addendum to the note that the Owl doesn't belong on the various 198 lists, there's a couple of mutants people keep missing off those lists. We've seen that these individuals set of Cerebro and are confirmed mutants; we've seen them since Decimation and they have retained their mutant abilities; one half of this duo has had a handbook entry which specifically states they are mutants that have retained their powers. Heck (and here's the biggest clue to their identities), Beast even confirmed that every mutant in their specific subgroup of mutantkind has remained powered. But, I guess because people don't automatically realise they are mutants and don't always think of these characters as having powers to begin with, nobody lists them.

Anyone care to guess who I am referring to?

Withpout looking at the Handbook I'm going to take a stab anyway: Swordsman? He was part of the Fenris duo and their powers are linked together and can't be used separately. Andrea Strucker is now tanned hide but technically as such has still been seen fairly regularly; in fact the Swordsman's powers won't work without contact with what's left of her. And the only other mutant(s) I can think of from their sub-group still has his/their powers as well (the Collective Man).

ToddCam
Jul 5, 2009, 12:16 pm
Any word on *shudder* Team America/Thunderriders?

Stuart V
Jul 5, 2009, 12:27 pm

DrGoodwrench wrote:

Orphan-Maker is part of a duo, is a mutant, and has had a handbook entry. He also does not appear on the list of confirmed remaining mutants on Wikipedia (which I do realise is perhaps not the best source to use). Also, he wears armour, so people might not realise he's a mutant (and his mutant powers have not been revealed). I'm not sure that he fits the 'subgroup' clue, though, so I guess it's not him being referred to here.

EDIT: Having re-read the wikipedia page, I don'tthink Orpham-Maker fits after all, since it seems he has not been confirmed as still having powers.

Good guess, but no. As noted, his powers come from his armour, as he was a young mutant whose natural abilities (presumably) hadn't activated yet when Nanny kidnapped him. As such, it's hard to be sure if Orphan-Maker retained his powers or lost them.

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Withpout looking at the Handbook I'm going to take a stab anyway: Swordsman? He was part of the Fenris duo and their powers are linked together and can't be used separately. Andrea Strucker is now tanned hide but technically as such has still been seen fairly regularly; in fact the Swordsman's powers won't work without contact with what's left of her. And the only other mutant(s) I can think of from their sub-group still has his/their powers as well (the Collective Man).

Nope, not Swordsman. There's question marks on the Struckers anyway - though they've occasionally been called mutants, originally they were identified as having undergone genetic manipulation to get their powers, which would make them mutates.

ToddCam wrote:

Any word on *shudder* Team America/Thunderriders?

No word on their status.

DrGoodwrench
Jul 5, 2009, 12:29 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Withpout looking at the Handbook I'm going to take a stab anyway: Swordsman? He was part of the Fenris duo and their powers are linked together and can't be used separately. Andrea Strucker is now tanned hide but technically as such has still been seen fairly regularly; in fact the Swordsman's powers won't work without contact with what's left of her. And the only other mutant(s) I can think of from their sub-group still has his/their powers as well (the Collective Man).

Did the Fenris twins have the x-gene? Does the fact that they were created with their powers by scientists preclude them from being true mutants? I'm not sure I'm totally up to speed on the current definition of mutant. I'm sure it used to be the case that a mutant had to have different powers to their parents. Is that still the case? If so, does that mean that Persuasion is not really a mutant or are her powers somehow different to her father's?

EDIT: Whether they are mutants or not was answered while I was writing this post. I'd still like to know about the Persuasion thing, though, if it's not OT.

EDIT2: Sorry if the questions at the start of this post seem a little aggressive. They're not intended to be.

ToddCam
Jul 5, 2009, 01:18 pm
The whole "born with powers but not a mutant" is one of the stupidest things in the world. Would bigots really care if Spider-Girl specifically has an x-gene?

Sidney Osinga
Jul 5, 2009, 02:07 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Correct. A malfunctioning Sentinel identified Falcon as a mutant, but as Jarvis specifically pointed out in one of the Annuals, that was a malfunctioning Sentinel, and Falcon's only innate power comes from the Cosmic Cube.

As an addendum to the note that the Owl doesn't belong on the various 198 lists, there's a couple of mutants people keep missing off those lists. We've seen that these individuals set of Cerebro and are confirmed mutants; we've seen them since Decimation and they have retained their mutant abilities; one half of this duo has had a handbook entry which specifically states they are mutants that have retained their powers. Heck (and here's the biggest clue to their identities), Beast even confirmed that every mutant in their specific subgroup of mutantkind has remained powered. But, I guess because people don't automatically realise they are mutants and don't always think of these characters as having powers to begin with, nobody lists them.

Anyone care to guess who I am referring to?

Cloak and Dagger?

DrGoodwrench
Jul 5, 2009, 02:18 pm
How about Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy? Devil Dinosaur's had a handbook entry and they're both mutants. I'm not sure what the subgroup is, though. Non-human mutants?

Stuart V
Jul 5, 2009, 02:37 pm

DrGoodwrench wrote:

Did the Fenris twins have the x-gene? Does the fact that they were created with their powers by scientists preclude them from being true mutants? I'm not sure I'm totally up to speed on the current definition of mutant. I'm sure it used to be the case that a mutant had to have different powers to their parents. Is that still the case? If so, does that mean that Persuasion is not really a mutant or are her powers somehow different to her father's?

EDIT: Whether they are mutants or not was answered while I was writing this post. I'd still like to know about the Persuasion thing, though, if it's not OT.

Being artificially mutated doesn't prevent someone being a mutant - Wild Child is a good example of someone whose existing natural mutation got enhanced by further external mutation. Fenris might fall into that category, but the early stories had them being both anti-mutant and claiming to having been given their powers artificially.

Persuasion is a mutant - born with innate powers similar (but not identical) to her mutated father, powers which manifested during puberty.

ToddCam wrote:

The whole "born with powers but not a mutant" is one of the stupidest things in the world. Would bigots really care if Spider-Girl specifically has an x-gene?

Bigots, by definition, aren't people who reason logically. To some, the lack of an x-gene would make a difference - being born with powers is against God's plan, but getting powers accidentally is part of God's plan, and all that malarkey. However, you are right that other bigots wouldn't discriminate.

DrGoodwrench wrote:

How about Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy? Devil Dinosaur's had a handbook entry and they're both mutants. I'm not sure what the subgroup is, though. Non-human mutants?

And that's the correct answer. Devil and Moon Boy were confirmed as mutants in the Fallen Angels mini-series. And they fit Beast's comment of "all the mutants from other timelines remain powered."

Stuart V
Apr 25, 2010, 03:54 pm
Reviving this with some more false memes.

Bloodscream's real name is Zachariah Ravenscroft. FALSE. This one has been doing the rounds on various wiki sites for a while, and shortly after it gets cleaned off one site (say Wikipedia), it gets added back on by someone cluelessly copy-pasting from another site (say Comicvine) which almost certainly got the misinformation from the cleaned site in the first place. We don't know Bloodscream's real name as of yet, and I'd appreciate anyone with membership on places like Comicvine removing it from there. Trying to kill this falsehood is like trying to kill a virulent bacteria; miss one spot during your sweep, and it'll breed and spread again, reinfecting all the places you disinfected.

Richard and Mary Parker, Peter's parents, were SHIELD agents. FALSE. This mostly originates because of a "Minus One" Spidey cover showing the couple with the words "Agents of SHIELD" emblazoned underneath, so at least it is understandable that people got this misimpression. But Tom Brevoort has stated in his blog that (1) he wrote the text for that cover, and (2) that he got it wrong. The actual story within shows the couple as CIA agents, not SHIELD. None of the couple's other appearances suggest them to be SHIELD agents, and indeed, until the recent SHIELD #1 (more on that below), the agency SHIELD didn't get formed until Peter was a teenager (it was formed after the FF got their powers), making it impossible for his parents to have belonged to it. Now, of course, SHIELD #1 has revealed that something calling itself Shield has existed for far longer, though again, it's a precursor to SHIELD (the agency we know). Could it later be revealed that the Parkers belonged to this? Sure, such a retcon is possible. But at the moment, and unless and until someone retcons it, the Parkers were not SHIELD agents.

VainInsect
Apr 25, 2010, 05:37 pm
Were there previous bearers of the titles Sorcerer Supreme and Brother Voodoo?

"Marvel Tarot" lists a whole bunch of names and dates for Sorcerer Supreme. Is that considered canon?

And I'd have to search for the link, I think I was at the marvelunapp site and it said something like "the brother voodoo of this (that particular) era".

Stuart V
Apr 25, 2010, 05:59 pm

VainInsect wrote:

Were there previous bearers of the titles Sorcerer Supreme and Brother Voodoo?

"Marvel Tarot" lists a whole bunch of names and dates for Sorcerer Supreme. Is that considered canon?

And I'd have to search for the link, I think I was at the marvelunapp site and it said something like "the brother voodoo of this (that particular) era".

Yes to all three questions. There have been many previous Sorcerer Supreme. There was at least one prior Brother Voodoo. And yes, the list in Marvel Tarot is canon. It's an "in-universe" document.

VainInsect
Apr 26, 2010, 12:31 pm
Thanks for the reply Stuart.

In the Marvel Universe, not all psychics are mutants, right? SHIELD had psis, but I don't recall them being labeled as mutants. Betsy was a psi for STRIKE, but she wasn't a mutant when she first appeared... unfortunately that's the only example I can think of.

Phoenixx9
Apr 26, 2010, 12:35 pm
Moondragon, who possesses both telepathic and telekinetic abilities, as well as incredible fighting prowess, is also not a mutant.

Stuart V
Apr 26, 2010, 01:08 pm

VainInsect wrote:

Thanks for the reply Stuart.

In the Marvel Universe, not all psychics are mutants, right? SHIELD had psis, but I don't recall them being labeled as mutants. Betsy was a psi for STRIKE, but she wasn't a mutant when she first appeared... unfortunately that's the only example I can think of.

Correct. Non-mutants can be psis, though generally not as powerful as the mutants. Psis who are not mutants (or, at minimum, not confirmed as mutants) include Madame Web, Betsy's fellow STRIKE psis Alison Double and Tom Lennox, Excalibur ally Emilia Witherspoon, most of SHIELD's Psi-Division, Libra and the above-mentioned Moondragon. Hellcat also used to have some psi-ability.

Michael Regan
Apr 26, 2010, 02:52 pm
Of course there is the question of the origin or source of their power if they are not mutants, but that is something else.

Andy E. Nystrom
Apr 26, 2010, 06:13 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Correct. Non-mutants can be psis, though generally not as powerful as the mutants. Psis who are not mutants (or, at minimum, not confirmed as mutants) include Madame Web, Betsy's fellow STRIKE psis Alison Double and Tom Lennox, Excalibur ally Emilia Witherspoon, Scotland Yard's Kate Fraser, most of SHIELD's Psi-Division, Libra and the above-mentioned Moondragon. Hellcat also used to have some psi-ability.

And there's an argument to be made for Spider-Man and even the Hulk being low level psis (Spidey due to his danger sense, Hulk due to his ability to always locate his birthplace and more importantly due to his ability to see astral forms)

VainInsect
Apr 26, 2010, 07:51 pm
Are X-Men: Hidden Years and Marvel: Lost Generation considered 616 canon?

Michael Regan
Apr 26, 2010, 07:57 pm
X-Men: The Hidden Years is certainly part of Earth-616 continuity, much like The Untold Tales of Spider-Man series. As for Marvel: The Lost Generation, I believe it is but I'm not 100% certain.

Madison Carter
Apr 26, 2010, 08:17 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

X-Men: The Hidden Years is certainly part of Earth-616 continuity, much like The Untold Tales of Spider-Man series. As for Marvel: The Lost Generation, I believe it is but I'm not 100% certain.

It absolutely is.

Michael Regan
Apr 30, 2010, 07:02 pm
The latest listing of designated Earths listed many preciously unassinged Earths, including movie and television adaptations of various Marvel proporties. Unfortunately it does not offer the option of indicating which other Marvel properties fall into the same reality.

What is missing is which cartoon series fall within the same reality as the X-Men (animated series) of 1992. I'm not sure if it is something that keeps getting posted incorrectly, but I have seen it posted in various different ways. I would expect that there are more than just a few adaptations that fall within a single continuity.

Andy E. Nystrom
Apr 30, 2010, 09:18 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

The latest listing of designated Earths listed many preciously unassinged Earths, including movie and television adaptations of various Marvel proporties. Unfortunately it does not offer the option of indicating which other Marvel properties fall into the same reality.

What is missing is which cartoon series fall within the same reality as the X-Men (animated series) of 1992. I'm not sure if it is something that keeps getting posted incorrectly, but I have seen it posted in various different ways. I would expect that there are more than just a few adaptations that fall within a single continuity.

Of ourse the challenge with those kinds of Earths is that crossovers like the 1990s X-Men/Spider-Man one are rare so it's hard to get a definitive answer.
The animated Spider-Man in the 1960s for example lived in a world similar enough to the Marvel Superheroes cartoons to be part of that world yet different enough to be separate. Unless someone from 616 or another comic book Earth actually goes there it's hard to know for sure.

Michael Regan
May 1, 2010, 08:54 am

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Of ourse the challenge with those kinds of Earths is that crossovers like the 1990s X-Men/Spider-Man one are rare so it's hard to get a definitive answer.
The animated Spider-Man in the 1960s for example lived in a world similar enough to the Marvel Superheroes cartoons to be part of that world yet different enough to be separate. Unless someone from 616 or another comic book Earth actually goes there it's hard to know for sure.

If there is any difference, or question, then I would be happy to assume a different reality. Much like the DC Animated Universe, X-Men (1992) shares a common reality with the Spider-Man (1994) cartoon among others, but this list varies from one source to another. Similarly, although I know that Elektra (2005) shares the same reality as Daredevil (2003) but even this has come into question in some cases. One of the more confusing aspects of mutliple itterations would be the insistance of many fans that Spider-Man (1967) share a reality with a much later adaptation, possibly the 1994 series I'm not certain.

Stuart V
May 27, 2010, 09:14 am

Michael Regan wrote:

Of course there is the question of the origin or source of their power if they are not mutants, but that is something else.

The assumption is that psi-powers are a natural part of humanity. Every human possesses some degree of strength, intellect, ect. The normal human range is exceptionally wide, a bell curve with most people in the mid-range and few at the extremes. Normal humans can still be incredibly smart (Reed Richards) or exceptionally, indeed what might be considered superhumanly, strong, without any sort of mutation or external enhancement - they are just right at the top end of the bell curve. Some mutants get a "leg up" and are smarter or stronger than normal humans (often enough to move them above the human range on the bell curve, but not always - Callisto's strength is enhanced by her mutation, but not above the level a normal human could theoretically attain - unlike them she doesn't have to work at it though). Psi-powers are the same. The average human's level is so low as to be non-existent, but normal human range includes, at the top end, out and out telepaths and telekinetics.

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

And there's an argument to be made for Spider-Man and even the Hulk being low level psis (Spidey due to his danger sense, Hulk due to his ability to always locate his birthplace and more importantly due to his ability to see astral forms)

His birthplace wasn't a psi power - he was being drawn back to the Maestro's mind. But yes, his power to see astral forms may be a low level psi power, as would his cousin's ability to sense that she's being watched by beings from other realities.

Michael Regan wrote:

The latest listing of designated Earths listed many preciously unassinged Earths, including movie and television adaptations of various Marvel proporties. Unfortunately it does not offer the option of indicating which other Marvel properties fall into the same reality.

What is missing is which cartoon series fall within the same reality as the X-Men (animated series) of 1992. I'm not sure if it is something that keeps getting posted incorrectly, but I have seen it posted in various different ways. I would expect that there are more than just a few adaptations that fall within a single continuity.

My recollection is that the 1990s Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons share a single reality, the DD and Elektra movies share one, and Iron Man/Incredible Hulk/Iron Man 2 and forthcoming Thor/Captain America/Avengers all share a single reality, but otherwise each cartoon or movie series is considered to be a separate reality from one another.

Stuart V
Dec 24, 2010, 10:39 am
A couple of new ones.

"The Hulk once lifted a 150 billion ton mountain range." This is a favorite one amongst those readers fond of "battle boarding" / "power gaming", who lock on to any examples of extreme power usage to try and prove this means the character is way more powerful than they are normally considered. But the above, referencing events in Secret Wars, falls down on several levels.

First, before anyone gripes, this is one of Hulk's greatest feats, no disagreement on that. This is the Hulk's equivalent of Spidey being trapped under Doc Ock's machinery in a flooding base; he's going way above and beyond his normal level, pushing himself to the maximum. It's massively impressive. But it's not indicative of his normal level, and he is not lifting 150 billion tons. The mountain range as a whole weighs 150 billion tons; if Hulk could lift it, then the heroes would be in no danger of being crushed. He's not lifting, he's supporting the weight, and there's a huge difference in that. When you jack your car up to replace a tire, is the entire weight of the car on the jack? No. A good percentage of it is on the other tires which are still on the ground. Most of the mountain range is firmly on the ground; that's exactly why the heroes are trapped, because there's no gaps for them to get out through. So most of the range's weight is being supported by the ground around the trapped heroes. If all of it was on the Hulk, even if he could cope with it the ground under his feet couldn't, and the concentrated force would drive Hulk into the ground like a nail into a wall.

The Hulk isn't even lifting up a small bit to form the gap the heroes are in; Iron Man and Hulk smashed that gap as the range fell onto them, creating a small cave directly above them; it's like the old movies of a building front falling down and a character surviving because they are just where the open window was, in the small gap between the heavy walls.

What Hulk is doing is buttressing the roof, to prevent their hastily formed cave from collapsing in on them. He's not taking the whole weight of the range any more than a supporting beam in a mining tunnel is taking the whole weight of the ground above the dig. He's still holding up tons of rock; given his strain he's taking the weight of more than a hundred tons of rock; it's still extremely impressive. But we don't have a quantifiable figure out of it, except to say it is nowhere near 150 billion tons.

Second one: "Valeria Richards' intelligence must be because of a mutant power. Marvel Girl, Valeria von Doom, wasn't that smart." Nope. Val is a mutant, like her brother, but her smarts don't necessarily come from mutation. Marvel Girl was smarter than Reed too, she just didn't make it so obvious - but she did solve quantum mechanic problems in her head for fun (FF Annual 2000), and she was smarter than Alyssa Moy, who is on a par with Reed intellectually (FF Vol. 3 #21). And current Val is Marvel Girl, regressed to infancy (FF Vol. 3, #50); it's not certain if she consciously has access to any of Marvel Girl's memories, but even subconscious access would explain some of the speed she's developed her manual dexterity (way above average for a kid her age) and scientific knowledge. So her brains could simply be natural, inherited from her father and paternal grandfather (who was, lets not forget, no slouch either).

Roger Ott
Dec 24, 2010, 06:23 pm
The Hulk one always gets me, too, because the good Dr. Banner even states on panel, "I'm just bracing it...I've got leverage!"

The cover, however, gives the impression that the Hulk is actually lifting the mountain and I think that's where a lot of the argument comes from. Artistic freedom on Bob Layton's part to make it a more dramatic scene, but that's all.

Michael Regan
Dec 24, 2010, 07:08 pm
Cover images have often been the source of interesting, and useless, arguments. I attribute it to the lazy "fan" who does not re-read issues, but instead scans covers to refresh their fractured memories.

Stuart V
Dec 24, 2010, 07:27 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

Cover images have often been the source of interesting, and useless, arguments. I attribute it to the lazy "fan" who does not re-read issues, but instead scans covers to refresh their fractured memories.

True enough. Just look at how many people insist that Peter Parker's parents were SHIELD agents, simply because the cover text got it wrong. The actual story never makes that claim.

Michael Regan
Dec 24, 2010, 08:25 pm

Stuart V wrote:

True enough. Just look at how many people insist that Peter Parker's parents were SHIELD agents, simply because the cover text got it wrong. The actual story never makes that claim.

The worst is all the pre-Crisis DC covers, mostly Superman... but that is outside "our" realm of discussion ;)

DeadpoolRP
Dec 27, 2010, 05:28 am

VainInsect wrote:

Are X-Men: Hidden Years and Marvel: Lost Generation considered 616 canon?

Madison Carter wrote:

It absolutely is.

How about the various X-Men: First Class series? I know that their solicitations, along with various places on Marvel.com, have said that they're in-continuity, and I believe that at least some things from them have been referenced in handbooks. However, now I'm seeing a lot of people online arguing that they're not in-continuity. And I don't believe they're mentioned in the indexes, though I could be wrong on that.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

William Keogh
Dec 27, 2010, 12:48 pm
If they're being mentioned in the handbooks and by Marvel.com itself, they're in continuity.

Zach Kinkead
Dec 27, 2010, 02:09 pm

William Keogh wrote:

If they're being mentioned in the handbooks and by Marvel.com itself, they're in continuity.

Not necessarily. Some of the recent HBs reference events in the 90s novels but the HB writers can’t seem to come to an agreement about if they’re canon or not.

Madison Carter
Dec 27, 2010, 04:26 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:

Not necessarily. Some of the recent HBs reference events in the 90s novels but the HB writers can’t seem to come to an agreement about if they’re canon or not.

Most of them are. We don't explicitely seek to not agree they're not canon - sometimes -- due to their nature -- we miss information regarding them when dealing with characters.

DeadpoolRP
Dec 27, 2010, 04:47 pm

Madison Carter wrote:

Most of them are. We don't explicitely seek to not agree they're not canon - sometimes -- due to their nature -- we miss information regarding them when dealing with characters.

Good to know that most of those novels are in-continuity. I had no idea! I may be wrong on this (because I never read the book myself), but I remember hearing that a Generation X novel had an additional student or two in it. Does anyone know which novel that was and if it was in-continuity? Because if it were, wouldn't that mean we have some more Gen. X members to add to the official team roster in the handbooks? (And no, I don't believe I'm confusing the novel with the TV movie, which had some different characters but I'm quite certain was an alternate reality.)

And does the same go for X-Men: First Class, getting back to the original question?

Stuart V
Dec 27, 2010, 06:49 pm

DeadpoolRP wrote:

How about the various X-Men: First Class series? I know that their solicitations, along with various places on Marvel.com, have said that they're in-continuity, and I believe that at least some things from them have been referenced in handbooks. However, now I'm seeing a lot of people online arguing that they're not in-continuity. And I don't believe they're mentioned in the indexes, though I could be wrong on that.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Initially we believed they were definitely in continuity, and indeed in some cases writers asked us for the odd bit of research help to make them as accurate to the era as possible. At some point a decision was made that they might or might not be; they are not out of continuity, per se, but they are not confirmed as in continuity except on a case by case basis where a non-First Class tale back references them - as has happened in at least a couple of cases.

William Keogh wrote:

If they're being mentioned in the handbooks and by Marvel.com itself, they're in continuity.

Unfortunately you can't take Marvel.com as evidence of being in continuity - there were problems with moderating the Wiki there, and while that's now apparantly fixed, a fair bit of unchecked info is still up there, some of which is unquestionably wrong.

Madison Carter wrote:

Zach Kinkead wrote:

Not necessarily. Some of the recent HBs reference events in the 90s novels but the HB writers can’t seem to come to an agreement about if they’re canon or not.

Most of them are. We don't explicitely seek to not agree they're not canon - sometimes -- due to their nature -- we miss information regarding them when dealing with characters.

As Madison notes, most of the books are considered canon - it's just not always possible to reference them for one reason or another.

DeadpoolRP wrote:

Good to know that most of those novels are in-continuity. I had no idea! I may be wrong on this (because I never read the book myself), but I remember hearing that a Generation X novel had an additional student or two in it. Does anyone know which novel that was and if it was in-continuity? Because if it were, wouldn't that mean we have some more Gen. X members to add to the official team roster in the handbooks? (And no, I don't believe I'm confusing the novel with the TV movie, which had some different characters but I'm quite certain was an alternate reality.)

The TV movie was another reality, as you say, so Buff and Refrax are only members in that reality. Not sure about the Generation X novels, as I haven't read all of them, but I think you might be meaning the three mutants (Chill, Dog Pound, Recall) who belong to M.O.N.S.T.E.R., who helped the team out but weren't members of it. http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/adriancastorp.htm#monster

ToddCam
Dec 28, 2010, 12:25 am
In the updated X-Men Index TPB, there is one issue where they mention the characters appearing next in X-Men: First Class. #8, if I remember correctly. I guess that one issue must be so unequivocally canon they had to mention it. (Not having read the series at all, I can't say why this might be, but I suspect it might be whenever it was the X-Men met Ken Hale, as mentioned in the X-Men/Agents of Atlas LS.)

Stuart V
Dec 28, 2010, 10:20 am

ToddCam wrote:

In the updated X-Men Index TPB, there is one issue where they mention the characters appearing next in X-Men: First Class. #8, if I remember correctly. I guess that one issue must be so unequivocally canon they had to mention it. (Not having read the series at all, I can't say why this might be, but I suspect it might be whenever it was the X-Men met Ken Hale, as mentioned in the X-Men/Agents of Atlas LS.)

Yes, a few of the First Class comics have been back referenced in non-First Class titles, so they are definitely in 616 continuity. While I personally believe the others are too, we can't say for certain until they are either similarly referenced (in which case they are 616) or something comes along that contradicts them (in which case they are not).

New "Things people keep getting wrong"

"Psylocke is a telepath because she's half-Otherworlder and everyone on Otherworld is telepathic." With some then using this to form a false corollary as an implication that Brian is "brain-damaged" (or other, less polite terms), because he lacks this "common" power.

There's a whole debate to be had about whether Betsy and Jamie are mutants or not, but that's not what is primarily wrong with the above statement. Most Otherworlders aren't telepaths. We had a lengthy Otherworld saga, and we've met a lot of Otherworlders. Apart from the elf Jackdaw, who was noted as exceptional, few had psychic powers worth speaking of. Where most people get this "Otherworlders are telepathic" meme from is the end of Excalibur's Cross-Time Caper, when they end up at Saturnyne's base, the Omniversal Hub, and Phoenix mentions that there are too many telepaths about, and that telepathy is the standard mode of communication. But the Hub is NOT Otherworld. We saw the Hub at Saturnyne's trial, and Wardog identified it as an alternate Earth, which Otherworld is not. Plus, Saturnyne got transported BACK to the Hub FROM Otherworld after Merlyn's funeral. Otherworld is Roma's home, and Saturnyne is often there, reporting to Roma, but her own "offices" are on the Hub, which is a world full of telepaths.