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6/20/2021 2:33 pm  #1


How many points can I get for being Thanos?

As we get more and more adaptations of comics into movies and TV shows, I feel I'm seeing an increasing number of online threads where someone declares "Actor X is the god of genre roles! He's appeared in [string of names in MCU, DC adaptations, other SF roles, etc.]. He's clearly has the most roles under his belt." and then we get the inevitable argument as other posters throw their own suggestions of actors contenders for the title into the ring. 

I figure the only this debate can be properly handled is to set ground rules and figure out a points system (hence the thread title). Using that we can then score each contender properly and create a league table.

So, for discussion, feedback and commentary, here's my initial thoughts on how many points we might assign:

1 point just for being in a genre movie or series, even if only a tiny part. By genre I mean it has to include some larger than life element - SF, fantasy, superhero, costumed crimefighter all definitely fit this descriptor, as would many spy movies (maybe not all?). Not sure if we include cop movie/series if said movie/series doesn't also include another larger-than-life element.
OR
2 points for appearing in same in a named role. 
OR
3 points for appearing in same if the role is somewhat major - big part guest, supporting or recurring cast for example
OR
4 points if the role is a leading part or the title character.

One point less for playing the part in animated series/movies.

If someone plays the same character across multiple movies/series then they get the full points the first time and then the same points minus one for all subsequent appearances:
e.g. Robert Downey Jr gets his 4 for Iron Man, and 3 for every subsequent MCU movies he turns up in.
Terence Howard gets 3 for being Rhodey in Iron Man; Don Cheadle gets 3 for being Rhodey in Iron Man 2 (though it's Rhodey's second appearance it's Cheadle's first time in the role) and 2 for every subsequent MCU appearance.

Bonus points to be added to the above baseline points. This is for each movie:

WHAT THEY DO:
+1 for exciting career (spy, cop, assassin, etc.) Obviously this is somewhat vague and might be up for debate, and a career that is exciting in one movie might be far more mundane in another movie. And superhero is not a career, generally speaking
OR
+2 for being a super spy/super assassin/similar etc. James Bond or John Wick would fit the latter categories, as might their main combat foes in each movie, but not all the lesser spies and assassins they face off against.
OR
+3 for outright superhero/villain/costumed crimefighter

WHERE THEY ARE FROM:
+1 for playing a part adapted from a different medium - so taken from novels, comics, radio, etc. I'm thinking that going from movies to TV or TV to movies counts IF said transitions are adaptations and not continuations - in other words, the Star Trek TV series cast don't get this bonus for playing the parts they originated on TV in a movie, but the reboot cast would as they are taking over roles.
OR
+2 for same but the part is notable/memorable in the original medium (even if you only cameo in the adaptation)
OR
+3 for same but the part is major in the original medium
OR
+4 for same but the part is "main cast" in the original medium

As an example to clarify the above:
in Sherlock Holmes adaptations, a lot of actors would end up playing largely unmemorable characters named in the original prose - they'd get the +1.
the person who plays the main villain in most Holmes adaptations would get +2 - important and more memorable, but being honest most people don't recall the culprits in the average Holmes story.
Mycroft, Lestrade, Wiggins, Moriarty, Mrs Hudson would all be +3 - either a truly memorable villain or a recurring character
Holmes and Watson both qualify for +4.

OTHER BONUSES (cumulative with any and all of the above)
+2 for being other than human - alien, vampire, cyborg, robot, ghost, zombie, etc. N.B. Being an alien cyborg vampire only gets you three points, not nine. Being an alien superspy would get you four though, as you could claim points for both the other than human and career choice.

+2 for iconic role. This might be the most debatable in terms of who qualifies, but generally I think it's best defined by "If someone asked random members of the general public who the character was, a good majority of them would be able to tell you."

Thoughts? Any amendments or additions to the points layout?



 

 

6/20/2021 8:52 pm  #2


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

If every movie is counted separately, are TV shows counted by season?  If a character plays more than one role in a movie or episode, are each counted separately or do you just go with the biggest role? Clark Gregg for example mostly played Sarge in season 6 of Agents of SHIELD but we sometimes also saw him as Coulson that season, arguably now an iconic character. If a character is a doppleganger of a better known character, how does that affect the point system (e.g. in Batwoman season 1, Dominic Purcell appeared as a parallel Earth version of Mick.


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6/21/2021 2:32 am  #3


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

If every movie is counted separately, are TV shows counted by season?  If a character plays more than one role in a movie or episode, are each counted separately or do you just go with the biggest role? Clark Gregg for example mostly played Sarge in season 6 of Agents of SHIELD but we sometimes also saw him as Coulson that season, arguably now an iconic character. If a character is a doppleganger of a better known character, how does that affect the point system (e.g. in Batwoman season 1, Dominic Purcell appeared as a parallel Earth version of Mick.

Good questions.

Maybe not for every season - otherwise TV roles might stack up points way too easily, especially in British shows that might run for years but only film six or so episodes per season. Perhaps for TV roles you get the repeat points for batches of three seasons? So full points for the first season, repeat points upon reaching season four, repeat points upon reaching season seven, etc.? This might be unfair on recurring guest stars though - someone who appeared in one episode a season across ten seasons of a show would get four lots of points while someone else who appeared as a big bad across 20 episodes but all in one season would only get points once. Not sure yet what if anything to do on that one. Suggestions welcome.

And yes, I'd count each role separately, except in cases where you are effectively playing the same role. So if we had a Terminator movie and we saw a factory of a thousand Terminators, all of which look like Arnie, we do not give Arnie points 1000 times. You've got to be somehow distinctive from the other character you play. I'd allow parallel Earth doppelgangers as distinctive characters for the points tally, and Sarge would be scored as being distinct from Coulson.

 

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6/21/2021 3:37 am  #4


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

More questions related to Where They Are From: What about characters with the same code name but different real name as someone with a different source? Examples: Wild Dog and Vigilante on Arrow. What if a character has a name from a source material but very little else? Examples: Adrian Chase on Arrow, Alexander Pierce in Winter Soldier, despite their name being from comics are essentially new characters. Whiplash from Iron Man 2 is an interesting case in that his code name and real name are from different sources (his own comic counterpart came later). There's also the likes of Felicity Smoak (Arrow) who shares the name as a comic version in name only but later a version closer to the show also turned up in comics  Also, characters who are from a source material but who were created to to create awareness of the character before their screen appearance and wouldn't have existed otherwise? Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) for example. It make prove necessary to treat certain characters on a case by case basis.

Cartoons are a complicated case for determining how many roles as sometimes it can be difficult to determine who all someone voiced in an episode. Exact roles are often not listed or are listed as Other Voices. Frank Welker is going to be very difficult to calculate if each role is treated separately.

Do stunt people get any points if they appear onscreen as a character even longer than the actor in general or at least in costume?  For example in the Amazing Spider-Man (1977 series), when Spider-Man appeared on screen, it was almost always Fred Waugh. If one actor appears on screen but another dubs their voice (even in the original language) does the person dubbing the voice gets anyone points? Nikki Van der Zyl did the voices of quite a few on screen James Bond actresses for example.
 


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6/21/2021 4:43 am  #5


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

More questions related to Where They Are From: What about characters with the same code name but different real name as someone with a different source? Examples: Wild Dog and Vigilante on Arrow. What if a character has a name from a source material but very little else? Examples: Adrian Chase on Arrow, Alexander Pierce in Winter Soldier, despite their name being from comics are essentially new characters.

More good points. In such cases I think it comes down to how much of the original is in there. If it gets down to "in name only" then they deserve no adaptation points:

Wild Dog and Vigilante were close enough to match their comics counterparts - right codenames, right costumes, so they'd count.

Adrian Chase - no for his civilian identity, but he might qualify for adaption bonus for his costumed identity.

Pierce, or Mac in Agents of SHIELD - so little of the original in there, probably not. The same would hold true for Fergee in the Judge Dredd movie - bar the name, he's nothing like the comic version.

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Whiplash from Iron Man 2 is an interesting case in that his code name and real name are from different sources (his own comic counterpart came later). There's also the likes of Felicity Smoak (Arrow) who shares the name as a comic version in name only but later a version closer to the show also turned up in comics

They lose out because they were adapted into comics, rather than out from them. However X-23 in Logan or Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad get the adapted bonus because they did originate in another medium.

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Also, characters who are from a source material but who were created to to create awareness of the character before their screen appearance and wouldn't have existed otherwise? Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) for example. It make prove necessary to treat certain characters on a case by case basis.

I think they get the points, if only because they made it out first. But as you say, it might have to be a case by case basis.

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Cartoons are a complicated case for determining how many roles as sometimes it can be difficult to determine who all someone voiced in an episode. Exact roles are often not listed or are listed as Other Voices. Frank Welker is going to be very difficult to calculate if each role is treated separately.

No credit, no points. But yes, someone truly prolific in cartoons might rack up ridiculous points - maybe instead of deducting one point for it being cartoon we should make it two (with no negative scores allowed - if deducting two would move you into the negatives you just score zero). That should eliminate people voicing random background characters.

Oh, and cartoons are treated the same as audio adaptations - I think David Tennant (for example) deserves recognition for playing Luther Arkwright in audio for example. Since counting audios could push some of the Doctor Who actors through the roof point wise, I suggest we count audio "seasons" as being 20 stories - so points for the first audio, then points again for the 20th, etc.

Maybe to avoid repeat performances dominating things, we cut back the points for repeats, and only give one point for each "repeat fee," regardless of what it originally scored?

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Do stunt people get any points if they appear onscreen as a character even longer than the actor in general or at least in costume?  For example in the Amazing Spider-Man (1977 series), when Spider-Man appeared on screen, it was almost always Fred Waugh. If one actor appears on screen but another dubs their voice (even in the original language) does the person dubbing the voice gets anyone points? Nikki Van der Zyl did the voices of quite a few on screen James Bond actresses for example.
 

I think we do give stunt people points - I want to award Ray Parks for being the Headless Horseman in Sleepy Hollow for example. And since I feel Doug Jones deserves recognition for his many roles, I figure if one person plays the body and another provides the voice, both get points. Maybe treat it like animated roles - you get the points you would have, less one if you were:
the stunt guy in most costumed shots
the body (presumably under prosthetics or in costume) while someone else was the voice
the voice while someone else was the body.

And yes, lets allow for people who dubbed others - the whole idea of the points system is to ensure all relevant roles get recognized and counted.
 

     Thread Starter
 

6/21/2021 5:41 am  #6


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

Loki wrote:

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Cartoons are a complicated case for determining how many roles as sometimes it can be difficult to determine who all someone voiced in an episode. Exact roles are often not listed or are listed as Other Voices. Frank Welker is going to be very difficult to calculate if each role is treated separately.

No credit, no points.

I think we should allow points if a specific role is widely known even if not credited in the source. Until the 1990s it was very uncommon to credit animated TV cast with specific roles (usually it was just their name), but it's very well known that Danny Dark voiced Superman on Super Friends, Paul Soles voiced Spider-Man in the 1967 series, Frank Welker voiced Iceman and Flash Thompson on Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, etc even though their exact roles weren't attached to them in the credits. Maybe the guideline can be if the credit for the specific role can be found in a reliable source even if not in the episode? Otherwise many voice cast are going to get much lower scores than they should have.


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6/21/2021 7:36 am  #7


Re: How many points can I get for being Thanos?

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Loki wrote:

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:

Cartoons are a complicated case for determining how many roles as sometimes it can be difficult to determine who all someone voiced in an episode. Exact roles are often not listed or are listed as Other Voices. Frank Welker is going to be very difficult to calculate if each role is treated separately.

No credit, no points.

I think we should allow points if a specific role is widely known even if not credited in the source. Until the 1990s it was very uncommon to credit animated TV cast with specific roles (usually it was just their name), but it's very well known that Danny Dark voiced Superman on Super Friends, Paul Soles voiced Spider-Man in the 1967 series, Frank Welker voiced Iceman and Flash Thompson on Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, etc even though their exact roles weren't attached to them in the credits. Maybe the guideline can be if the credit for the specific role can be found in a reliable source even if not in the episode? Otherwise many voice cast are going to get much lower scores than they should have.

Sounds fair. 

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