Who Watches the Watchers - Forum for the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe & Similar Works » Multiversal Kevin Bacon

Loki · 1/03/2020 4:01 am

Freely admitting I'm pinching the idea from a discontinued sub-thread of Brian Cronin's column on CBR:

Mostly for fun (but also because it helps track Omniversal links), people can suggest two characters from any fiction, and the challenge is to try and connect them (a la Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon) via characters who share stories with one another. For example (with a really simple route):

DC's Joker to Marvel's Jester: Joker has frequently fought Batman; say in Batman #1. Batman met Daredevil in Batman/Daredevil: Kings of New York. Daredevil has frequently fought Jester, starting from Daredevil #42.

The rules, which will probably need refining as time goes on, are:

1) We're not fussed which reality a character comes from, because that could get us bogged down in debates over whether or not (for example) the Hellboy who met the TMNT or Batman is the "real" Hellboy or just one of his multiversal counterparts. For the purpose of this game, multiversal counterparts count as the same character.

2) That said, real world people would make things too easy to connect, as individuals like state leaders (POTUS, Queen Elizabeth II, etc.) are often used to make a story feel more connected to the real world. So they don't count UNLESS both appearances were explicitly authorised by the person who appeared; e.g. there are some artists (not naming anyone ahead of playing) who have drawn their own fictional counterparts into multiple comic realities; those count.

3) Ditto mythological characters - it's too easy to connect lots of realities via King Arthur or Merlin, for example. Marvel's Thor is not the same as DC's Thor. We'll allow them to connect across a single company or publisher - so the DC Merlin who knows the Demon Etrigan is counted as the same Merlin who appeared in Camelot 3000, but not for the purposes of this game the same as Marvel's Merlyn who empowered Captain Britain and the Black Knight (despite his claims to be the same Merlin/Merlyn across the Omniverse). I think (but this might change, if it makes things to easy/complicated) we'd count Marvel's Merlyn as the same one as the one who appeared in Disney's The Sword in the Stone however, now that Disney owns Marvel.

4) Licensed appearances for a character count across any companies; Dark Horse's Conan is the same as Marvel's for this game.

5) I'm on the fence for public domain characters; allowing any and all Sherlock Holmes appearances to count might make the game too easy. I think for the moment they will count, BUT a route that uses them is automatically beaten by a route that doesn't, even if it takes more steps.

6) Same thoughts on unofficial cameos. For now they are allowed - so George Lazenby turning up in The Return of the Man from U.N.C.L.E. in a cameo that is clearly intended to be James Bond counts. However, authorized connections are preferable, and will automatically beat a route that uses unauthorized ones. Cameos of a character who that a company holds/held the license to count as official, even when they are "nod and wink," but not if they happened at a time when the company didn't hold the license.

Loki · 1/03/2020 4:05 am

And to start us off:
Girl Genius, Agatha Heterodyne to girl genius, Moon-Girl.

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 10:26 am

Agatha's father and uncle, Bill and Barry Heterodyne, first appeared in somewhat different form in a Munden's Bar story in Grimjack #40.
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles appeared in a Munden's Bar story in Grimjack #26.
The Turtles and the Transformers both participated in IDW's Infestation 2 event.
Spider-Man appeared in issue #3 of the original Transformers series from Marvel.
Spider-Man appeared in Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #42.

Loki · 1/04/2020 12:41 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
Agatha's father and uncle, Bill and Barry Heterodyne, first appeared in somewhat different form in a Munden's Bar story in Grimjack #40.
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles appeared in a Munden's Bar story in Grimjack #26.
The Turtles and the Transformers both participated in IDW's Infestation 2 event.
Spider-Man appeared in issue #3 of the original Transformers series from Marvel.
Spider-Man appeared in Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #42.

Pretty solid. Just to clarify for anyone else reading this: Munden's is a location, not a character, BUT since it is the same location, I'd allow it anyway. That said, I just double checked both issues and confirmed that the bartender, Gordon Munden, is visibly present in both stories, so he'd count as a connector even if the bar itself didn't.

I haven't checked the Infestation issues to see if the Turtles and Transformers directly met one another, but even if they didn't, there were all facing the same threat in that story, so at worst we'd gain an extra step.

So we've got a six step solution above (Agatha to Bill/Barry to Munden to Turtles to Transformers to Spider-Man to Moon Girl). Any takers to try to beat this? There are at least two routes I can think of that are shorter by two steps; one of those uses a cameo that I believe is unofficial, and so wouldn't beat zuckyd's route, but the other uses all authorized appearances. I also have one that does it in three steps, but it includes a link that is potentially tenuous and might be ruled invalid, as it utilizes as one of the links an alternate reality counterpart who doesn't retain the same codename.

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 2:18 pm

How about this four-step path?
1) Agatha to Bill/Barry.
2) Billy and Barry appeared in DC's Stanley and His Monster #1, as does a dream version of Superman.
3) Superman first met Spidey way back in 1976.
4) Spider-Man to Moon Girl.

(If step 2 isn't valid, then you can insert Stanley, his monster, and Superman all appearing in Infinite Crisis #6.)

Last edited by zuckyd1 (1/04/2020 2:19 pm)

Loki · 1/04/2020 3:35 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
How about this four-step path?
1) Agatha to Bill/Barry.
2) Billy and Barry appeared in DC's Stanley and His Monster #1, as does a dream version of Superman.
3) Superman first met Spidey way back in 1976.
4) Spider-Man to Moon Girl.

(If step 2 isn't valid, then you can insert Stanley, his monster, and Superman all appearing in Infinite Crisis #6.)

Hmm. Not sure on counting the dream version of Superman in general, but since it's a DC universe story I think we can allow it. Besides, the main point of this game is to map connections between fictional characters/realities, so even if the characters aren't meeting directly, it's still a link from Girl Genius to DC. My shortest route actually used the same issue - I just went via Doc Savage, who appears on panel with Bill and Barry.

Since he was licensed we can use him as a link, and Doc also appeared in a comic with Spider-Man while Marvel held the license; even better, he met the Thing face to face in MTIO.

My other routes were:
Four steps:
1) Agatha to her writer/artist Phil Foglio in the very first issue of Girl Genius (Phil is in the back of this page, sitting under a shop awning talking to some kids, while Agatha is in the foreground wearing a beret and military jacket and looking downcast)

(http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021106#.XhEY047AM2x - check out the series. It's really good)
2) Phil to Gordon Munden in more than one issue of Grimjack - say Grimjack #15, where he covers a shift for Gordon. Since this was again written and drawn by Phil, it counts as an authorized appearance, and is allowable.

3) Munden to Nightmare in the Munden's Bar story Insomniac, published online by Ostrander. Potentially dubious because I suspect it wasn't an authorized appearance (despite how clearly it is Nightmare), plus strictly speaking it's Morpheus (as in the Sandman) having transformed into Nightmare (after first transforming into Morpheus from the Matrix movies).

That's Munden with the blowpipe.
4) And Nightmare has met Moon Girl in her title.

Potentially shorter route:
1) Agatha to Phil, as above
2) Phil to Dr. Deranged, the What The? counterpart of Dr. Strange (this is the possibly dodgy link mentioned in my previous post; if this was published by another company than Marvel, Deranged would be disallowed as a parody/pastiche, but because it is from a Marvel title he's a legit otherdimensional counterpart to Strange, and per the rules I set we normally allow counterparts).

3) Strange to Moon Girl directly in a few issues of her title, like #16 and #38.

Loki · 1/04/2020 3:38 pm

Okay, a new one:
Skull the Troll from PvP

(he's the blue, non-human one, in case anyone is unsure)
to Skull the Slayer from Marvel

Last edited by Loki (1/04/2020 3:39 pm)

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 6:03 pm

I have a very tenuous connection, but it depends on (of all things!) Gabe Kotter and the Sweathogs being depicted on the cover of Superman vs. Muhammad Ali. Several online sources claim this is the case, but I can't spot them and they're not listed in the key that was included in the issue.

Loki · 1/04/2020 6:22 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
I have a very tenuous connection, but it depends on (of all things!) Gabe Kotter and the Sweathogs being depicted on the cover of Superman vs. Muhammad Ali. Several online sources claim this is the case, but I can't spot them and they're not listed in the key that was included in the issue.

I'd be interested to hear it, BUT after checking the issue and the key included, I'd have to say:

1) that key seems pretty comprehensive, so unless those sites can specify who they think is meant to be the characters in question, I'm not sure there are any additional identifiable individuals on the cover, and
2) even if they were there, since every other celebrity is listed as being the actor, not any of the characters they play, we'd have to assume that it is Gabe Kaplan rather than Gabe Kotter in attendance.

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 6:23 pm

There's also this strip, which, if admissible, has possibilities:

Loki · 1/04/2020 6:24 pm

I should also make it clear that anyone is free to add in their own challenge, without either "winning" the existing one(s) or waiting for waiting for existing ones to be solved, and that you can ask for a connection to be made without already knowing if one exists or what it might be.

Loki · 1/04/2020 6:26 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
There's also this strip, which, if admissible, has possibilities:

You mean the Marmaduke/Garfield/Family Circus references? Hmm. It does imply a connection, so I think we can allow it, but it would count as a weaker link than an actual appearance, weaker than even an unofficial cameo. So you can use it, but it could be "beaten" by a stronger but longer route.

Last edited by Loki (1/04/2020 6:27 pm)

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 7:11 pm

Loki wrote:
2) even if they were there, since every other celebrity is listed as being the actor, not any of the characters they play, we'd have to assume that it is Gabe Kaplan rather than Gabe Kotter in attendance.

Although DC was publishing a Welcome Back, Kotter comic at the time ;)

Sooooo anyway....

1) Skull and Jade Fontaine are regular characters in PvP:

2) Jade met (a no-doubt unauthorized version of) TV police captain Barney Miller in PvP's October 20, 2007 strip:

3) Barney Miller may have once locked up the Sweathogs, if Rick Mitz's The Great TV Sitcom Book is to be believed!

4) Horshack, are you in there?

5) This happened:

6) Silver Surfer and (Blazing) Skull the Slayer both appeared in Quasar #50.

zuckyd1 · 1/04/2020 7:36 pm

Loki wrote:
Hmm. It does imply a connection, so I think we can allow it, but it would count as a weaker link than an actual appearance, weaker than even an unofficial cameo. So you can use it, but it could be "beaten" by a stronger but longer route.

Fair enough.

1. Skull apparently knows Garfield, as revealed in PvP's 08/19/2014 strip:

2. Garfield and ALF were two of the Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue:

3. ALF met the High Evolutionary in ALF Annual #1:

4. The High Evolutionary met the Thing in Fantastic Four #172-175:

5. The Thing met Skull the Slayer in Marvel Two-In-One #35:

Last edited by zuckyd1 (1/04/2020 8:01 pm)

Loki · 1/05/2020 2:36 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
Loki wrote:
2) even if they were there, since every other celebrity is listed as being the actor, not any of the characters they play, we'd have to assume that it is Gabe Kaplan rather than Gabe Kotter in attendance.
Although DC was publishing a Welcome Back, Kotter comic at the time ;)

Even in that case, I feel, though only because of the precedent set by the other individuals on the cover. Mind you, if the entire group was present and wearing their character's regular outfits, that might change things.

That said...

zuckyd1 wrote:
Sooooo anyway....

1) Skull and Jade Fontaine are regular characters in PvP:

2) Jade met (a no-doubt unauthorized version of) TV police captain Barney Miller in PvP's October 20, 2007 strip:

3) Barney Miller may have once locked up the Sweathogs, if Rick Mitz's The Great TV Sitcom Book is to be believed!
4) Horshack, are you in there?
5) This happened:

6) Silver Surfer and (Blazing) Skull the Slayer both appeared in Quasar #50.

I do like the route you've come up with, especially with the slipping from comics to TV and back. Very nice.

Loki · 1/05/2020 2:58 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
Loki wrote:
Hmm. It does imply a connection, so I think we can allow it, but it would count as a weaker link than an actual appearance, weaker than even an unofficial cameo. So you can use it, but it could be "beaten" by a stronger but longer route.
Fair enough.

1. Skull apparently knows Garfield, as revealed in PvP's 08/19/2014 strip:

2. Garfield and ALF were two of the Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue:

3. ALF met the High Evolutionary in ALF Annual #1:

4. The High Evolutionary met the Thing in Fantastic Four #172-175:

5. The Thing met Skull the Slayer in Marvel Two-In-One #35:

Another excellent route. Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue is what I think of as a "major nexus" - a story that doesn't just connect two or three normally separate realities, but multiple ones all in one go.

The route I already had in mind when I suggested this pairing came to mind when I was checking out routes for my last suggestion, and as such includes a couple of the same individuals as links.
1) Skull the Troll appears in Nodwick #10, when the titular Nodwick is slipping from one reality to the next trying to get home. This is authorized, as the panel in question was drawn by Skull's creator.
2) The very next panel has Nodwick run into Phil Foglio's fictional avatar.

And for those keeping score, that's some of the Dork Tower characters in the next two panels, thus also connecting that series to the rest of the Omniverse. http://comic.nodwick.com/?comic=2009-07-24
3) From Phil we can get to Dr. Strange via Dr. Deranged (if we allow that link) as previously discussed.
4) From Dr. Strange we get to Jim Scully, as both appeared on panel together in Quasar#50 (when Scully was Blazing Skull, top right of image).

If the Deranged=Strange route isn't viable, then we go from Phil to the Heterodynes to Doc Savage to the Thing to Skull the Slayer; several additional steps, but still a valid route.

zuckyd1 · 1/05/2020 10:17 am

From

KEVIN KELLER

to

HUEVOS Y BACON

Loki · 1/05/2020 11:11 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
From

KEVIN KELLER

to

HUEVOS Y BACON

Hmm. Two routes, but both using unofficial cameos:
First route: 1) Kevin to Batman in Harley & Ivy Meet Betty & Veronica
2) Batman to Doctor Strange in Marvel vs. DC
3) Doctor Strange (Deranged) to Asterix in What The? #2 (unofficial cameo link, and using a counterpart of a different codename) - remember that panel I posted earlier? Here's the wider cut version:

4) Asterix to Huevos in Asterix in Spain.

OR slightly longer but not using a renamed/parody dimensional counterpart:
1) Kevin to Batman, as above
2) Batman to Daffy Duck in Superman and Bugs Bunny
3) Daffy to Donald Duck in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

4) Donald to Asterix in Asterix et ses Amis (not sure if this was authorized, or just an incredibly bold unauthorized use of Donald and several of his cast - the artist/writer Vicar was a regular Disney artist in European titles)

5) And then Asterix to Huevos as above.

In case you're wondering why I am not using Superman to Obelix via Action Comics #579 as a link, I'm dubious about using that one. I'm happy to use dimensional counterparts (Old Man Logan is still Wolverine at the end of the day), including ones with different codenames (Captain Britain/Brian Braddock is the same as Albion/Bran Bardic, but I wouldn't consider CB/BB to be a counterpart to, say, Spider-UK, as they are different people under the mask). I'm willing to use unidentified cameos where the character is visibly recognizable, as in the Asterix in What The? However, while it is clear in the Action Comics story who the characters are pastiches of and thus who they are counterparts of, we've got unauthorized use, name changes and appearance changes; to me, that's a step further that I want to go. It'd be like using Captain Strong (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/captain-strong/4005-49291/) as a counterpart/link to Popeye, or Hyperion as a counterpart/link to Superman. Similarly, in that What The? story, there are several unnamed but clearly recognizable cameos of non-Marvel characters, including several DC characters under changed parody names (Fandom Stranger, Zatanana, etc.); I'm fine with using the former as links (albeit weaker, unauthorized, ones), but not the latter.

Loki · 1/05/2020 12:55 pm

From
BANANAMAN

to
COWBOY GORILLA

Loki · 1/05/2020 12:58 pm

From
DEATHLOK (for the sake of this game, let's go with the original, LUTHER MANNING version)

to
DEADLOCK

Loki · 1/05/2020 1:02 pm

From
JACK STAFF

to
UNION JACK (any of them, as they share many of the same allies)

Loki · 1/05/2020 2:45 pm

And one I'm hoping should provide an interesting challenge:
From
THE SCARECROW OF ROMNEY MARSH

to
THE PHANTOM OF FEAR CITY

Since the Scarecrow appears in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which would link him to a gazillion public domain characters, I'm going to restrict the use of public domain types for this one. They can be used, but under the same restrictions as real people or mythological characters; for the purpose of this game, the company that published LoEG is considered to be America's Best Comics, NOT Wildstorm or DC.

zuckyd1 · 1/05/2020 4:36 pm

Loki wrote:
From
DEATHLOK (for the sake of this game, let's go with the original, LUTHER MANNING version)

to
DEADLOCK

1) Deathlok (in flashback) and Nighthawk both appeared in Defenders #51.

2) Nighthawk and Batman both appeared in Avengers/JLA #4.

3) Batman and Judge Dredd have met several times.

4) Judge Dredd met Hammerstein in 2000 AD #960-963.

5) Hammerstein and Deadlock are both ABC Warriors.

zuckyd1 · 1/05/2020 6:27 pm

Loki wrote:
And one I'm hoping should provide an interesting challenge:
From
THE SCARECROW OF ROMNEY MARSH

to
THE PHANTOM OF FEAR CITY

Since the Scarecrow appears in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which would link him to a gazillion public domain characters, I'm going to restrict the use of public domain types for this one. They can be used, but under the same restrictions as real people or mythological characters; for the purpose of this game, the company that published LoEG is considered to be America's Best Comics, NOT Wildstorm or DC.

League, shmeague...

1) The Scarecrow met Captain Jack Sparrow in the Winter 2005 issue of Disney Adventures Comic Zone.

2) Jack Sparrow and Baymax both appeared in Kingdom Hearts III.

3) Baymax and the Scarlet Witch both appeared in Thunderbolts Vol. 1 #25.

4) The Scarlet Witch and Mantis were the brides in a double wedding that took place in Giant-Size Avengers #4.

5) Mantis, now going by the name Lorelei, appeared in Scorpio Rose #2.

6) Scorpio Rose appeared in Phantom of Fear City #4.

zuckyd1 · 1/05/2020 7:16 pm

Loki wrote:
From
JACK STAFF

to
UNION JACK (any of them, as they share many of the same allies)

1. Jack Staff appeared in Invincible #8 and #60.

2. Invincible and Spider-Man both appeared in Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #14.

3. Spider-Man and Union Jack both appeared in Amazing Spider-Man: Ends of the Earth #1.

Last edited by zuckyd1 (1/05/2020 7:17 pm)

zuckyd1 · 1/05/2020 8:01 pm

From

REID FLEMING

to

COOKIE BUMSTEAD

Loki · 1/06/2020 8:04 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
From

REID FLEMING

to

COOKIE BUMSTEAD

This can be a fairly short route if we go via unauthorized cameos.
1) Reid appeared alongside either Cookie's brother or father in Captain America #401.
2) Cookie has obviously appeared with both of them a ridiculous number of times.

Going through more solid routes takes a little longer.
1) In the comic strip Blondie and Dagwood, Cookie and Dick Tracy both attended Blondie and Dagwood's 75th Anniversary party.
2) Tracy has teamed up with the Spirit in the former's own newspaper strip.

3) The Spirit has run into Batman a few times - during the First Wave imprint for example, but lets say Batman/Spirit

4) Batman met the Maxx in Batman/Maxx: Arkham Dreams

5) The Maxx and Reid Fleming both took part in the War of the Independents

The Green Hornet is an alternative option to bridge Dick Tracy to Batman, as he's met the former once, and the latter at least twice (in the 66 TV show, and in the Batman '66 comics).

Loki · 1/06/2020 8:06 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
Loki wrote:
From
JACK STAFF

to
UNION JACK (any of them, as they share many of the same allies)
1. Jack Staff appeared in Invincible #8 and #60.

2. Invincible and Spider-Man both appeared in Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #14.

3. Spider-Man and Union Jack both appeared in Amazing Spider-Man: Ends of the Earth #1.

yeah. Didn't think it would take much to link them; just a fun combo.

Loki · 1/06/2020 8:45 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
Loki wrote:
From
DEATHLOK (for the sake of this game, let's go with the original, LUTHER MANNING version)

to
DEADLOCK
1) Deathlok (in flashback) and Nighthawk both appeared in Defenders #51.

2) Nighthawk and Batman both appeared in Avengers/JLA #4.

3) Batman and Judge Dredd have met several times.

4) Judge Dredd met Hammerstein in 2000 AD #960-963.

5) Hammerstein and Deadlock are both ABC Warriors.

Yep, that works, though it can be shortened
1) Deathlok to Spider-Man in Marvel Team-Up

2) Spider-Man to Judge Dredd in the Comic Relief Comic

3) Dredd and Deadlock met in 2000A.D. Prog 500's "Tharg's Head Revisited"

Loki · 1/06/2020 9:19 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
Loki wrote:
And one I'm hoping should provide an interesting challenge:
From
THE SCARECROW OF ROMNEY MARSH

to
THE PHANTOM OF FEAR CITY

Since the Scarecrow appears in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which would link him to a gazillion public domain characters, I'm going to restrict the use of public domain types for this one. They can be used, but under the same restrictions as real people or mythological characters; for the purpose of this game, the company that published LoEG is considered to be America's Best Comics, NOT Wildstorm or DC.
League, shmeague...

1) The Scarecrow met Captain Jack Sparrow in the Winter 2005 issue of Disney Adventures Comic Zone.

2) Jack Sparrow and Baymax both appeared in Kingdom Hearts III.

3) Baymax and the Scarlet Witch both appeared in Thunderbolts Vol. 1 #25.

4) The Scarlet Witch and Mantis were the brides in a double wedding that took place in Giant-Size Avengers #4.

5) Mantis, now going by the name Lorelei, appeared in Scorpio Rose #2.

6) Scorpio Rose appeared in Phantom of Fear City #4.

Yeah, that's a good route, and shorter than the two possibles I had in mind. Like you I was thinking of Scarecrow to Captain Jack, a crossover I only recently learned of (and now I want to track it down, and all the subsequent Scarecrow of Romney Marsh comic strips that followed in subsequent issues). And like you, I next went Kingdom Hearts, but to link Sparrow to Donald Duck. From Donald to Daffy via Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, Daffy to Superman, Superman to Madman, Madman to Badger in War of the Independents, then Badger to Coyote
in Coyote#14

and Coyote to Phantom of Fear City, in the same issues Scorpio Rose turned up in.