Historical text from Comixfan (closed thread because it was later replaced by a newer Omniverse thread covering much the same ground; the other thread is not yet back up but will probably reappear shortly)

Stuart V

Jan 23, 2008, 03:42 pm

Having seen some comments on another forum, I just want to clarify something which seems to be causing confusion. Namely, does Marvel have it's own "Omniverse" separate from that of DC, Archie, Image, etc?

The answer is NO. Omni means all - the Omniverse includes everything. It's bigger than Marvel's multiverse, which includes 616 (the main Marvel reality), 712 (the Squadron Supreme's "Earth-S"), and most of the realities visited by the Exiles. It's bigger than the Marvel Megaverse, a looser grouping of realities related to Marvel (and, it seems, the exact content of Megaverses are in flux, as realities once part of a given Megaverse can "drift away" [for want of a better term]). The Megaverse includes the realities slightly closer related to the Marvel multiverse (e.g. in real world terms, its somewhat easier to arrange crossovers, because Marvel is publishing both titles), but which appear to have their own cosmic entities - e.g. the Marvel multiverse has Galactus, while the Nth Man's reality had Mgubgub. But again, it does seem the cosmic entities aren't the hard-and-fast final definer of which multiverse you are in (or else realities can sometimes shift from one multiverse to the next, so that major entities like the Living Tribunal gain dominion over them - we've kind of seen this with the New Universe Earth; or else some cosmic entities span more than one multiverse at a time; or a bit of both). And some of the bigger cosmic entities (Living Tribunal again, for example) may be known under different names and forms in further flung reaches of the Omniverse.

But what about some Marvel characters who claim to deal with not just the multiverse, but the Omniverse? Doesn't that prove that Marvel has it's own Omniverse, separate from every one elses?

Nope. Merlyn (and latterly Roma) claim to be Omniversal protectors. It could be they are just being boastful; the Omniverse is infinite, and while they might feel they are defenders of all of it, in practice they can only keep an eye on a finitie amount. It could be they do try and defend all of it; we've only seen a tiny fraction of the work they've done, after all.

What about the Exiles, who have claimed the mantle of Omniversal defenders? Well, they may well be defending the entire Omniverse, but in the same way most NYPD cops only actually patrol a relatively small part of NYC, the Exiles are mostly patrolling the "Marvel neighborhood." Could they pop in on Hellboy or Astro City? Sure - if the creators/owners of those realities decided to do a crossover, and signed off on it, then they could. Will they? Probably not (and certainly not, if the owners don't want them to).

What about beings who have threatened the Omniverse? In one reality Galactus destroyed an Earth transformed by the Impossible Man, which he feared could cause "irreparable harm to the fundamental fabric of the Omniverse" If he hadn't done that, could this harm have affected our world too (since it is, by definition, part of the Omniverse)? I guess so - luckily Big G apparently did enough to stop this harm, or overestimated how far it would spread - and besides, "irreparable harm" isn't quantified and isn't the same as "total destruction," so it might not spread as far as the other multiverses. If one of my fingers was cut off, that would be "irreparable harm" to my body, but the rest of me could go on, and I doubt my toes would notice the difference. Actually, a scar is irreparable harm - but wouldn't necessarily affect me that much, functionally speaking.

What about the effects of Scarlet Witch's HoM reality warp? X-Men: Die by the Sword noted "Not long ago, the Omniverse was swept by a temporal reality wave of unimaginable power, that literally tore the Continuum to bits and re-arranged it. Then after a time, it apparently reversed itself and put everything back the way it was."

Ignoring the option of hyperbole for a moment, first, there's the note that everything was eventually put back the way it was - which means that if HoM did have a ripple effect across all realities and changed (for example) Bananaman's reality, since everything got put back to normal after a while, then Bananaman isn't likely to have noticed what happened.

Also, we again hit the fact that the Omniverse is infinite; what was a tsunami rushing over the Marvel multiverse was likely a small ripple by the time it hit the more distant parts of the Omniverse (such as the realities owned by other companies). We are told the Continuum got tore into pieces - but how big were those pieces? At the distant edges of the damage, we could find that entire megaverses were moved around, but that nothing inside those megaverses got rearranged relative to one another. Who was going to notice that for the duration of HoM the realtive interdimensional locations of the Star Wars multiverse and the Star Trek multiverse had changed?

What about the Jaspers Warp? That threatened to spread across the entire Omniverse! And it would have done - given time. But since Jaspers was stopped early enough, no damage was done outside of Earth-616.

See, that's the thing - any comic from any company can have a danger threaten to destroy the "entire Omniverse" but since that actually happening would necessitate the end of the comic, it isn't likely to actually happen.

So, in summary - Marvel has a reality (616, the main one we see most often), and Marvel has a multiverse, and Marvel has a megaverse (which contains places like the New Universe and Ultraverse). But there is only one Omniverse. Yes, it's the Marvel Omniverse, but it's also the DC Omniverse, the Dark Horse Omniverse, and OUR Omniverse.




Michael Regan

Jan 23, 2008, 03:56 pm


One of the best Omniversal descriptions I have ever seen. Fantastic job, Loki.

(Should I even ask what the other forum you refer to is ? :wink




Roger Ott

Jan 23, 2008, 04:48 pm


That's quite a mouthful! Well done.




Madison Carter

Jan 23, 2008, 09:47 pm


Dammit, so I can't look forward to House of M: Bananaman now?




Stuart V

Jan 23, 2008, 10:50 pm

Madison Carter wrote:

Dammit, so I can't look forward to House of M: Bananaman now?

Hey, we have flashbacks to Cage's HoM team, so why not Bananaman, so long as someone can convince DC Thomson to license the crossover?




fesak

Jan 24, 2008, 06:00 am


Excellent clarification there.

I just want to add that our world, aka. the Real world apparently is a part of the multiverse and not omniverse since it was designated Earth-1218 in New Exiles #1




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 08:01 am

fesak wrote:

Excellent clarification there.

I just want to add that our world, aka. the Real world apparently is a part of the multiverse and not omniverse since it was designated Earth-1218 in New Exiles #1

Not actually right, on two counts. First, the real world is part of the Omniverse, because by default, anything which is part of a multiverse is part of the Omniverse - in fact, everything is part of the Omniverse, period, given the definition of the Omniverse.

As for the real world (ours) having a numerical designator, that doesn't prove it is part of the Marvel multiverse. The New Universe reality is outside the multiverse, but has a number. The numbers cover the Omniverse, not any one multiverse - we only mention the ones given in Marvel titles, and the numbers given out by Merlyn and Roma (the Core Continuum Designations) may not match the numbers given out by the natives of those realities (the natives of 616 call 712 "Earth-S;" we say Germany, but the natives of that country call it Deutschland; DC's Earth-1 MAY not be the same as the CCD Earth-1), but all realities are numbered.




fesak

Jan 24, 2008, 09:40 am

Stuart V wrote:

Not actually right, on two counts. First, the real world is part of the Omniverse, because by default, anything which is part of a multiverse is part of the Omniverse - in fact, everything is part of the Omniverse, period, given the definition of the Omniverse.

As for the real world (ours) having a numerical designator, that doesn't prove it is part of the Marvel multiverse. The New Universe reality is outside the multiverse, but has a number. The numbers cover the Omniverse, not any one multiverse - we only mention the ones given in Marvel titles, and the numbers given out by Merlyn and Roma (the Core Continuum Designations) may not match the numbers given out by the natives of those realities (the natives of 616 call 712 "Earth-S;" we say Germany, but the natives of that country call it Deutschland; DC's Earth-1 MAY not be the same as the CCD Earth-1), but all realities are numbered.

Ah, thanks for the correction.
I was under the impression that low numbers = inside multiverse, high numbers = outside multiverse since the New Universe for example has number 148611.




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 09:57 am

fesak wrote:

Ah, thanks for the correction.
I was under the impression that low numbers = inside multiverse, high numbers = outside multiverse since the New Universe for example has number 148611.

As a rule of thumb, that if often the case, but it is not a decider. Lots of lower numbered Earths not in Marvel's multiverse, conversely some higher numbers are.




Clay Olsen

Jan 24, 2008, 01:18 pm

nicely done Loki...
Though I'm not sure I would have seperated the New Universe from the rest of the Marvel Multiverse... but I can see how it could be placed outside of it...

I always took Roma/Merlyn to be overstating their importance with Otherworld... or at the most merely calling everything under their domain the "Omniverse" even though it clearly wasn't everything...

I much preferred it when the Exiles were just limiting themselves to the Multi/Megaverse...




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 01:32 pm

Clay Olsen wrote:

nicely done Loki...
Though I'm not sure I would have seperated the New Universe from the rest of the Marvel Multiverse... but I can see how it could be placed outside of it...

When the New Universe first interacted with the Marvel universe in Quasar, it was specifically identified as being outside the multiverse.

Clay Olsen wrote:

I always took Roma/Merlyn to be overstating their importance with Otherworld... or at the most merely calling everything under their domain the "Omniverse" even though it clearly wasn't everything...

Yes, I'd agree they could be overstating their importance, or it could be that while they can protect anywhere in the Omniverse, it's simply too big a place for them to effectively protect more than a small area. Or we just haven't seen the stuff they've been doing behind the scenes in the Star Wars reality (for example).

Clay Olsen wrote:

I much preferred it when the Exiles were just limiting themselves to the Multi/Megaverse...

Yes, it did make life easier. But that said, if anyone can easily justify a company crossover, it'd be the Exiles. It's highly unlikely to happen, but I personally think it'd be really cool to have an arc where the Exiles temporarily gain the Savage Dragon (picking someone who is out of his original reality as an example, and so disjointed from time) as a member. The only thing that prevents it is licensing - if the creators/owners were up for it in both companies it could be done very easily.




Michael Regan

Jan 24, 2008, 01:50 pm

Stuart V wrote:

Yes, it did make life easier. But that said, if anyone can easily justify a company crossover, it'd be the Exiles. It's highly unlikely to happen, but I personally think it'd be really cool to have an arc where the Exiles temporarily gain the Savage Dragon (picking someone who is out of his original reality as an example, and so disjointed from time) as a member. The only thing that prevents it is licensing - if the creators/owners were up for it in both companies it could be done very easily.

I postulated and Marvel / DC deal where the exiles would pop into the DC Universe, see Superman and Batman standing there, then pop right back out wihtout being spotted because they were actually transported onto the wrong Earth. This could be a nice 2 or 3 panel spot in both Exiles and the Superman / Batman series.

Nothing but harmless fun with no real significance anywhere.




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 05:55 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I postulated and Marvel / DC deal where the exiles would pop into the DC Universe, see Superman and Batman standing there, then pop right back out wihtout being spotted because they were actually transported onto the wrong Earth. This could be a nice 2 or 3 panel spot in both Exiles and the Superman / Batman series.

Nothing but harmless fun with no real significance anywhere.

You kind of get something like that in Image's Invincible, when he is dimension hopping. He ends up in the Marvel 616 universe, but there's also one panel where the reality he enters looks to be DC's, with Batman present.




Michael Regan

Jan 24, 2008, 07:13 pm

Stuart V wrote:

You kind of get something like that in Image's Invincible, when he is dimension hopping. He ends up in the Marvel 616 universe, but there's also one panel where the reality he enters looks to be DC's, with Batman present.

I've got the Invincible / Spider-Man issue but not the "Batman" issue. It would be great to actuall bridged the gap by having the true characters appear in the realated issues, but you are correct in that it is not likely to happen.




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 07:24 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I've got the Invincible / Spider-Man issue but not the "Batman" issue. It would be great to actuall bridged the gap by having the true characters appear in the realated issues, but you are correct in that it is not likely to happen.

In the Invincible issue you see him visiting a number of realities as demonstrated by panel after panel giving a glimpse of each. You see him arriving in 616 and crashing into Doc Ock, but he's not identified - you can tell it's him by the arms though. And then you see Invincible's journey continue, complete with Spidey's webbing on him, and you see him talking to Batman and starting to make the same joke about Batman's name that he made about Spidey's.

I guess there is no reason that Kirkman couldn't in theory arrange with DC to have a crossover between Invincible and Batman; as always, it is down to the individual companies involved to sign off on the idea.




Michael Regan

Jan 24, 2008, 07:36 pm

Stuart V wrote:

(the natives of 616 call 712 "Earth-S;" we say Germany, but the natives of that country call it Deutschland; DC's Earth-1 MAY not be the same as the CCD Earth-1)

A DC oriented example would be the two (or three) Captain Carrot series. The inhabitants of the planet call it Earth-C, but its new multiverse designation is Earth-26.




Stuart V

Jan 24, 2008, 10:33 pm


A little more for those who believe that there's a separate "Marvel Omniverse." Apart from the very fact that the whole point of defining a term Omni-Verse to cover ALL realities means that there can't be another Omniverse, inter-company crossovers that have happened wipe that option out. Leaving out cases where characters from different companies just seemed to suddenly co-exist on the same world as one another (where we are seeing alternate reality versions of characters), there's tons of cases of characters meeting in crossovers recognised to be in continuity for the "mainstream" versions of the characters involved.

Let's start with the aforementioned Invincible-Spidey meeting. That's not shown in any special mini-series which might be considered "out of continuity," it's shown in Invincible's own title and the very much in-continuity Marvel Team-Up. So Marvel and Image share an Omniverse. BUT Invincible and Savage Dragon are both in the same Image universe, and Dragon has met the villains from Wanted in his own series, so Wanted is in that same Omniverse. Then there's the heroes who turned up at Ricochet and Barbaric's wedding in Savage Dragon #46, including the DNAgents from Eclipse, AC's Femforce, Warren's Vampirella, Dark Horse's Hellboy, Flaming Carrot, E-Man, Destroyer Duck, Megaton, and Superman, the Fantastic Four and Next Men are all name-checekd - but I could see some more pernickety people claiming that all of these might be Image-reality counterparts of the other companies' characters, since we don't get confirmation of interdimensional travel bringing them to the wedding.

But even if you do want to ignore that wedding, we have Dragon crossing over with ALL these guys
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/w/warindep.htm
this coming year, and the War of the Independents is being treated by all involved as being in-continuity, with interdimensional travel bringing the participants together.

In the assemblage shown on that link page, we have Badger and Madman, both of whom have travelled interdimensionally to meet Nexus. Nexus in turn has encountered Dreadstar and Grimjack via interdimensional travel (and Nexus' friend Judah has met American Flagg ally Luther Ironheart), again in tales treated as part of those character's official canon. In fact, the entire First Comics line has pretty much managed to cross over with one another - all in the same Omniverse then.

Valiant crossed over with Image too (Deathmate), so that brings Valiant into the Omniverse. The Wildstorm, Top Cow and Awesome realities all split off from the Image reality in the "Crisis on Infinite Earths in Reverse" Shattered Image. So they share the same Omniverse. And we know Wildstorm shares a multiverse with DC (and has both have been shown to cross over with Marvel in in-continuity stories). DC and Milestone crossed over, again in in-continuity stories.

Zot, seen in the War of the Independents, took part in Total Eclipse, which confirmed the Eclipse comic line (including Miracleman, Airboy, Liberty Project, Prowler, Aztec Ace and Mr. Monster, amongst others) are all in the Omniverse.

I could go on, but I don't think there is a need. These crossovers didn't feature "versions" of the characters from the different companies. They featured the "real" characters meeting one another. That means in these cases at least, they have all been SHOWN to unequivocably share an Omniverse that is much bigger than just Marvel. And it shows that the only thing preventing confirmation on the page (rather than just following what we have seen to it's logical conclusion and recognising that everything is in the Omniverse) is creator/owner choice.




Rayeye

Jan 25, 2008, 10:54 am


Nice and interesting information, Loki, thanks for sharing!
It's cool to know in some way the X-Men, Avengers, etc. are distant "neighbours" of us :yeah: Who knows maybe one day the Exiles will visit our reality!




Stuart V

Jan 25, 2008, 11:13 am

Rayeye wrote:

Nice and interesting information, Loki, thanks for sharing!
It's cool to know in some way the X-Men, Avengers, etc. are distant "neighbours" of us :yeah: Who knows maybe one day the Exiles will visit our reality!

The concept that fictional worlds are actually inspired by a writer subconsciously remembering dreams which accessed other realities, and thus that all fictional worlds are real somewhere out in the Omniverse, isn't even a new one. That was the whole premise of L. Sprague DeCamp and Fletcher Pratt's Incompleat Enchanter stories, with the protagonist Harold Shea and his friends travelling to parallely worlds, including Valhalla during Ragnarok, Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene, Oz, Cervantes' Don Quixote, Barsoom and Shakespeare's Tempest, amongst others.

So if those fictional worlds are out there, why not the Marvel universe? And maybe the Exiles should run into Harold Shea?

And talking of novels, Roger Zelazny's Amber series dealt with multiple realities, and included an appearance by Grimjack, showing that there isn't an Omniversal "snobbery" going on - comic characters can cross into novels, and vice versa. The Omniverse embraces ALL fictional realms.




Michael Regan

Jan 25, 2008, 01:52 pm


I particularly like Madison Carter'sCrossover Earth (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/e...ossoverall.htm) description, which in no way detracts from your write up but does explain why Spider-Man was no surprised when he met Superman, for example.




Stuart V

Jan 25, 2008, 06:22 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I particularly like Madison Carter'sCrossover Earth (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/e...ossoverall.htm) description, which in no way detracts from your write up but does explain why Spider-Man was no surprised when he met Superman, for example.

Yes, Madison's Earth-Crossover is a nice concept, and that entry is excellent.

Another way of characters meeting is merged realities. The Chaos Engine trilogy of novels describes it best; when Dr. Doom, Magneto and the Red Skull use a damaged Cosmic Cube to recreate the world in their image, the Cube reaches out to find a reality elsewhere in the Omniverse as close as possible to their desired world, and then overlays it on top of 616. And for any naysayers who would discount this concept because Chaos Engine was told in novels instead of comics, I refer you to Amalgam and the GN "Excalibur: Weird World War," both of which demonstrate the exact same concept. As does a segment of the Milestone/DC crossover "Worlds Collide."




Michael Regan

Jan 25, 2008, 07:36 pm

It would be fantatic if someone took the time to include various other cross company crossovers into Carter's work on Earth-Crossover, but since he went "officially went bat#&@* insane" doing the profile, I'm reluctant to tackle it myself.

I was not a big fan of Weird War Three, but have been meaning to get the Chaos Engine for quite some time now.

And speaking of Omniversal inclusion (and slightly off topic) would there ever be plans for handbook(s) about theatrical and television comic book adaptions, perhaps with Earth designations. (Bah, I'm breaking the rules... but I've got your attention :wink




Stuart V

Jan 25, 2008, 08:11 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

It would be fantatic if someone took the time to include various other cross company crossovers into Carter's work on Earth-Crossover, but since he went "officially went bat#&@* insane" doing the profile, I'm reluctant to tackle it myself.

It'd be a heck of a job, though there's no reason it couldn't be done a bit at a time. Just add in the crossovers one character at a time - every Batman crossover for example.

Michael Regan wrote:

I was not a big fan of Weird War Three, but have been meaning to get the Chaos Engine for quite some time now.

Chaos Engine is interesting, and nicely fits into established continuity.

Michael Regan wrote:

And speaking of Omniversal inclusion (and slightly off topic) would there ever be plans for handbook(s) about theatrical and television comic book adaptions, perhaps with Earth designations. (Bah, I'm breaking the rules... but I've got your attention:wink

Unlikely, but never say never, at least so long as Marvel owns the rights to the adaptions. If the rights are shared, then it's much more complicated. But a few designators, at least, have crept into the Handbooks over the last few years.




Michael Regan

Jan 25, 2008, 08:40 pm


There are plenty of other examples of shared continuity that may be considered canon. There is the Marvel Zombies and Army of Darkness mini-series is an example, although I have not read it and am not certain if it actually falls in with Earth-2149 continuity. There have been various Aliens / Predator cross-overs with DC characters, the Green Lantern vs Aliens being one that is considered continuity. There has also recently been a Spider-Man / Red Sonja series, and not the old Marvel Red Sonja :wink:

With respect to establishing if a story is canon or not, every story should be considered canon; it simply depends on which reality the story is canon of. Marvel's What If stories were generally considered non-canon, but many have been given designations and are therefore canon of their respective realities.

The same can be said for DC's Elseworlds, many of which have recently given designations within the new DC mutiverse.

It is all in how you view things... within the all encompassing Omniverse!




Rayeye

Jan 25, 2008, 09:34 pm


Since some visions, dreams, fantasy trip, etc. Marvel characters experienced were later listed as alternate Earths (like Captain Britain's Days of Future Tense and Prodigy's story in New X-Men), does that mean actually every vision or dream is supposed to be an alternate reality (at least in the Marvel Universe)?




Michael Regan

Jan 25, 2008, 09:37 pm

Rayeye wrote:

Since some visions, dreams, fantasy trip, etc. Marvel characters experienced were later listed as alternate Earths (like Captain Britain's Days of Future Tense and Prodigy's story in New X-Men), does that mean actually every vision or dream is supposed to be an alternate reality (at least in the Marvel Universe)?

Not to speak for Loki, but I would say that, potentially, yes. This is not something restricted to only the Marvel Universe. The Crisis on Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition listed quite a few Earths of the DC multiverse, many of which were originally considered dreams or imaginary stories.




Stuart V

Jan 25, 2008, 09:39 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

There are plenty of other examples of shared continuity that may be considered canon. There is the Marvel Zombies and Army of Darkness mini-series is an example, although I have not read it and am not certain if it actually falls in with Earth-2149 continuity.

It does - and the issue of Ash's prior mini-series even shows him travelling there interdimensionally, so it's unquestionably in-continuity for him too.

Michael Regan wrote:

There have been various Aliens / Predator cross-overs with DC characters, the Green Lantern vs Aliens being one that is considered continuity.

And the Wildcats/Stormwatch/Aliens crossover in Wildstorm. But these are probably not examples of interdimensional crossover, but rather confirmation that the Xenomorphs have counterparts in those realities.

I did forget however that Batman and Judge Dredd have met through interdimensional crossover (and Dredd himself has at least three more realities attached to his multiverse, that of Judge Death, the reality where he became Chief Judge Dread, and the future where the Mutant turned Mega-City One into a monster-filled wasteland patrolled by vampire Judges and a zombie Dredd. Plus Dredd has met other 2000 AD characters, some through time-travel from what may be alternate futures (Johnny Alpha, the Strontium Dog).

Michael Regan wrote:

There has also recently been a Spider-Man / Red Sonja series, and not the old Marvel Red Sonja :wink:

I haven't read Dynamite's Red Sonja, but I'm not certain she isn't simply a continuation of Marvel's Red Sonja (unlike Dark Horse's Conan, which isn't a continuation of Marvel's, since we've seen some of the original stories (Frost Giant's Daughter) retold and revised. As far as Sonja goes, I believe she and Kulan Gath recalled their previous encounter with Spidey, and unless something happens in the Dynamite stories which makes them impossible to reconcile continuity-wise with the Marvel Sonja stories, they may well be considered to simply show the same Sonja.

Michael Regan wrote:

With respect to establishing if a story is canon or not, every story should be considered canon; it simply depends on which reality the story is canon of. Marvel's What If stories were generally considered non-canon, but many have been given designations and are therefore canon of their respective realities.
Yes, I know, that the correct usage. When people say "is it canon" or "is it in continuity" the answer is always "Yes." The correct question is "which reality is it canon or continuity for?" Hence why you'll see me often putting quotes round canon or "in-continuity" in earlier posts, where I was using the looser definition many people erroneously use.

The same can be said for DC's Elseworlds, many of which have recently given designations within the new DC mutiverse.

Michael Regan wrote:

It is all in how you view things... within the all encompassing Omniverse!

Very true.




Michael Regan

Jan 25, 2008, 09:48 pm

Stuart V wrote:

It does - and the issue of Ash's prior mini-series even shows him travelling there interdimensionally, so it's unquestionably in-continuity for him too.

Then I really need to pick this one up!

Stuart V wrote:

And the Wildcats/Stormwatch/Aliens crossover in Wildstorm. But these are probably not examples of interdimensional crossover, but rather confirmation that the Xenomorphs have counterparts in those realities

.
Non-descript characters... yes, I had not though of that.

Stuart V wrote:

I did forget however that Batman and Judge Dredd have met through interdimensional crossover (and Dredd himself has at least three more realities attached to his multiverse, that of Judge Death, the reality where he became Chief Judge Dredd, and the future where the Mutant turned Mega-City One into a monster-filled wasteland patrolled by vampire Judges and a zombie Dredd. Plus Dredd has met other 2000 AD characters, some through time-travel from what may be alternate futures (Johnny Alpha, the Strontium Dog).

Hmmm, I am not familiar with these. I'll have to do some investigation :-D

Stuart V wrote:

I haven't read Dynamite's Red Sonja, but I'm not certain she isn't simply a continuation of Marvel's Red Sonja (unlike Dark Horse's Conan, which isn't a continuation of Marvel's, since we've seen some of the original stories (Frost Giant's Daughter) retold and revised. As far as Sonja goes, I believe she and Kulan Gath recalled their previous encounter with Spidey, and unless something happens in the Dynamite stories which makes them impossible to reconcile continuity-wise with the Marvel Sonja stories, they may well be considered to simply show the same Sonja.

This paring has confused me because of the character's history, so I may have to track it down as well.

Stuart V wrote:

Yes, I know, that the correct usage. When people say "is it canon" or "is it in continuity" the answer is always "Yes." The correct question is "which reality is it canon or continuity for?" Hence why you'll see me often putting quotes round canon or "in-continuity" in earlier posts, where I was using the looser definition many people erroneously use.

I just noticed that this clarification was missing and thought I'd throw it in. It also foreshadowed Rayeye's post to an extent.

Perhaps I need to begin creating a cross-company cross-over listing on-site somewhere.




Stuart V

Jan 25, 2008, 10:19 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

Since some visions, dreams, fantasy trip, etc. Marvel characters experienced were later listed as alternate Earths (like Captain Britain's Days of Future Tense and Prodigy's story in New X-Men), does that mean actually every vision or dream is supposed to be an alternate reality (at least in the Marvel Universe)?

Yes (and not just in the Marvel "Universe"). The Days of Future Tense wasn't a dream, it was a future memory of a timeline Brian Braddock saw while lost in the timestream, then initially forgot about when he returned home, consciously at least (but as the dream demonstrated, not subconsciously). We've also seen in the original Nightcrawler mini-series that Kitty's Fairy Tale was a genuine alternate reality. Plus we know that Marvel characters are considered fictional in the New Universe - how did the writers in that reality manage to get such accurate portrayals of beings from another reality? And the same held true for DC characters in the Milestone reality. The logical conclusion is that at least some dreams and fictions are actual alternate realities that the writers had subconsciously looked in on. And given that the Omniverse is infinite, then logically there are an infinite number of realities, which means that all dreams and fictions are presumably actual history in some reality, no matter how bizarre.

Michael Regan wrote:

Hmmm, I am not familiar with these. I'll have to do some investigation :-D

British characters from 2000 AD. The Chief Judge Dread comes from the novel Dreadlocked, and Deathworld is the home of Dredd's alternate reality nemesis Judge Death. Most of the 2000 AD major series have been shown to be interconnected, but for the most part they could be segments from one long timeline, as they don't use time travel for the most part to link them, instead having long-lived or immortal characters (such as the robot Hammerstein and his ABC Warriors) show up in multiple series (ABC Warriors (set c2020, and then a couple of thousand years later), Nemesis the Warlock, Ro-Busters, and Judge Dredd have all seen Hammerstein show up, and the ABC Warriors fought the end of the long Volg War seen to start in Invasion, while Dredd fought the resurrected-through-cloning T-Rex known as Satanus, who originally appeared in Flesh). Johnny Alpha is a frequent time-traveller, and twice travelled around 70 years into what he claimed was his past to encounter Dredd - but given Dredd now has some foreknowledge of the future, while Dredd may be Alpha's past, Alpha may not be Dredd's future. And so on.

Michael Regan wrote:

I just noticed that this clarification was missing and thought I'd throw it in. It also foreshadowed Rayeye's post to an extent.

I take your point, it was worth explicitly stating.

Michael Regan wrote:

Perhaps I need to begin creating a cross-company cross-over listing on-site somewhere.

I've planned to for some while, and just never had time to get round to it.




Michael Regan

Jan 26, 2008, 11:47 am

Stuart V wrote:

I've planned to for some while, and just never had time to get round to it.

I'll see if I can start one... somewhere on site :dunno: and everyone can contribute missing titles to the list.

Considering the nature of Image Comics, would meetings between different creator's character be considered a cross-over?




Starlock

Jan 29, 2008, 12:05 pm


I think i am a member of the site to which i believe the threadstarter mentioned, it seems that a few of the posters believe that marvel has its own omniverse, i would like to think common sense would have prevailed without proof, but i am glad to see actual writers for the handbooks join us on these or any boards, i have just joined this site and plan on being a vocal member....Thanks




Stuart V

Jan 29, 2008, 12:58 pm

Starlock wrote:

I think i am a member of the site to which i believe the threadstarter mentioned, it seems that a few of the posters believe that marvel has its own omniverse, i would like to think common sense would have prevailed without proof, but i am glad to see actual writers for the handbooks join us on these or any boards, i have just joined this site and plan on being a vocal member....Thanks

I think you may be - I post on few sites, but I do drop in and lurk on many on occasion. Your name does ring a bell from being on the site that sparked off my comments here. Since I wrote many of the handbook entries (notably Impossible Man, Mad Jim Jaspers, Merlyn and Roma) that were being quoted by those arguing for a separate Marvel Omniverse, I felt I should respond, albeit here where my identity is verified rather than on the board in question.

Simply put, there is only one Omniverse (capital letter, since there's only one). Marvel is in it, but Marvel does not own it; by definition, no one can. There's too much evidence from "in-continuity" appearances of characters who have crossed realities, not just to and from Marvel, to be able to logically argue that the different realities aren't at some level part of an overall whole (examples listed in previous posts). The fact that some Marvel characters claim Omniversal remits can either be considered to be misusing the term, boasting, overstating their claims, ignorance of the true vastness of the Omniverse on their part, or, if they are actually accurate and telling the truth in said claims, that we simply never get to see their activities in the further reaches of the Omniverse (e.g. the bits owned by other companies). "Threats to the Omniverse" can likewise be simple overstatements. Even cosmic entities are capable of hyperbole - "this is the end of everything!" isn't necessary a literal statement, and "everything" can be misused to mean "everything within a given reality," "everything within a given multiverse," "everything which I know of" (which in an infinite multiverse may still be actually only a small fraction of the true whole), etc. Like the blind men feeling the elephant, someone can claim "this affects the whole Omniverse" when what it actually affects is the bits they know.




Michael Regan

Jan 29, 2008, 07:59 pm

Starlock wrote:

I think i am a member of the site to which i believe the threadstarter mentioned, it seems that a few of the posters believe that marvel has its own omniverse, i would like to think common sense would have prevailed without proof, but i am glad to see actual writers for the handbooks join us on these or any boards, i have just joined this site and plan on being a vocal member....Thanks

I've posted a suggestion on the site in question to visit us here, but they do not allow posting links until you have established yourself.

In any event, welcome aboard... try the Resources Section
(shamless plug) :wink:




Stuart V

Jan 29, 2008, 09:34 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

I've posted a suggestion on the site in question to visit us here, but they do not allow posting links until you have established yourself.

I notice the following, latest post, on that site

Marvel exists within an omniverse that it admits it shares with DC

2006/2007/2008 Official Marvel Handbook bios would disagree.

Normally I wouldn't issue a rebuttal to a post on another forum here, but since the poster in question is claiming entries I wrote for the Handbooks back up his arguement, when in fact they do not, and since I'm not a poster on that forum, I'm going to make an exception. To whit - the "Official Marvel Handbook bios" of whatever year do NOT disagree with the notion that Marvel exists within an Omniverse it shares with DC. poster 1 has the right of it, poster 2 is in error.

Since poster 2 also uses Marvel.com to back his claims, stating that only Marvel staff can alter it, I'd just like to point out that Marvel.com is a wiki site, which means that anyone can edit it, not just company staff. We (the moderators) do our best to keep it accurate, but mistakes can and do slip through. And besides, if poster 2 checks the pages he claims back his case, he'll find they don't (because I've clarified the bit that he wrongly felt backed it, to make it clearer about the nature of the Omniverse). And lastly, since I've covered all the other things that poster 2 raised as evidence to support his case and shown why they don't in earlier posts here, I'll deal with the only one left I haven't covered. Poster 2 shows various scans where "Marvel literally depicted it's Omniverse On Panel" To which I have to point out, yes, Marvel has shown various panels where someone shows a panopoly of images from across the Omniverse and goes "looks, here's the Omniverse" - but there's no way any single panel can show the entire Omniverse! The bit depicted on panel can only ever be a small selection, not even all the Marvel-owned realities, and naturally, given copyrights, you'll only get to see Marvel-owned realities in the bits we get to see (unless another company gives the okay to including a cameo for some of their characters, or some artist does a crafty nod-n-wink cameo where you can figure out who we are seeing but they aren't explicitly identified - see Invincible for an example of this). Just because these montages don't depict non-Marvel realities doesn't mean the non-Marvel stuff isn't meant to be there, off-panel.




Starlock

Jan 30, 2008, 01:40 pm

Thanks to everyone

I use the same user name(cant upload custom avatar..i assume i have to have a certain amount of post or more time here) but here i use Xman as an avatar
I would think it was simple logic and common sense that would win this debate, but now thanks to many of you, there really is no deabte

I look foward to having my views and thoughts on these matters taken seriously and deabted politly and with people who take time and consideration with thier post

heres to an interesting future :wave:




Stuart V

Jan 31, 2008, 04:10 pm

Since I know the individual who is making the assertion that the handbooks support his separate Marvel Omniverse theory is reading this thread and claiming I am "changing my stance" various points as I discuss things like the level of effect that Wanda's warp had on the Omniverse, let me just make it clear. I am not changing my stance - I am offering options, because I am not in the habit of making definitive statements on things when we don't know all the answers. I was pointing out MULTIPLE ways that the comments made on panel could be literally true with the wording given while still not supporting his stance - he insisted on taking on interpretation that backed his own separate Marvel Omniverse hypothesis and insisting that was the only way it could be interpreted. Unlike him, I'm not saying any one option HAS to be correct - just showing that there are many ways that the comments could be looked at, most of which don't support the separate Omniverse theory he espouses. Which means the on-panel stuff doesn't prove anything (provide evidence, not prove), leaving the handbooks as the clarifier (which is often the handbooks job). And the handbooks make it clear - one single Omniverse which includes everything.